Red Bulls (U.S. Open Cup) - Postmatch

[JayH]

Like others, what bothered me the most about last night is the confirmation of how far Medina is from an Almiron or Barco right now. I am a huge proponent of MLS 3.0 DPs. But that means being closer to polished than project or you are playing from behind.

 

[Sabo]

The Club is putting zero emphasis on the USOC. No application for home games. No effort during the offseason to sign quality US subs to build a roster to compete in the USOC (Berget v free agent Gordon). I don't blame the Club for not having a USL team but our B team cant compete against B teams who have 12 competitive matches under their belt.

Sands pass to Medina though ...

 

[mgarbowski]

Agree. And I think organically is great. But why do they need to play at NYCFC stadium 5 years from now? Why can't they play at another smaller venue in the interim. Presumably, between our academy guys, and the guys on the senior team who PV says need a "B squad" to get minutes with... maybe bring in a few other players... we could have a USL squad tomorrow.

USL now has stadium standards for expansion teams. To find/build a grass stadium in the New York metro area to meet USL standards would just be moot. Build an MLS stadium and have USL play there on the other weekends.

Vieira's answer to that question is just so annoying. "You have to have patience and remember the club is only 4 years old." Plus the bit about prioritizing the stadium. A stadium is still 4-5 years away minimum and probably longer. Atlanta is in its second year and has a USL club playing in a minor league baseball stadium 30 miles outside of Atlanta.

I'm fairly concerned that our club is run by corporate zombies.

Egh, I could go on about more stuff, but it's just repeating other people's points. If I don't stop I'll just get more upset.

 

[Jon]

I don't blame the Club for not having a USL team but our B team cant compete against B teams who have 12 competitive matches under their belt.

How can you say this? It's 100% NYCFC's fault that we don't have a USL side. They could affiliate with any number of teams in the area (NPSL or USL) that could be used / partnered with NYCFC. Connecticut has teams in Hartford and New Haven. I know the Hartford team was looking to expand their stadium at a cost of about $10 million. That's pocket change for CFG. Buy the team, build the stadium, and apply for a move to USL.

If we're waiting until a stadium is built before starting a NYCFC2, then we're wasting the talent of some of our homegrown players by having them sit on the bench, missing actual game experience.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Everything this club has done has been 1. We started our academy and grown them up rather than just filling every age group from the start.

Now, we are 5+ years in, and here's where that approach has gotten us:
1 - No homegrowns contributing
2 - No place to play our fringe/young players to allow them to develop and get live game minutes
and finally
3 - Still no stadium announcement.

If you claim to put everything second to a stadium, and you have no tangible progress on a stadium (and they don't, otherwise, we'd know. And no, I don't count having a couple of coin flips where you're in talks. Done enough smaller deals to know that a few "maybes" doesn't cumulatively equal tangible progress.), you have to re-evaluate and change course.

This approach was obviously deeply flawed, and I'd argue symptomatic of the half-assed approach we've initially taken to most everything. CFG underestimated the demands of running an elite-level MLS club or at least the trajectory of the league. They thought they could walk in, flop their big hairy euroballs on the table and cash checks and collect trophies.

Other than the utterly stupid delay on the academy front, which can't be changed, the question for me is why we aren't changing course faster. All of the money needs to be spent sometime, anyway. It's not like they have a capital issue where their cost of money is so high that they need to spread the spend. I know, I know. OPM and all. But still - just figure out a damn place to play our young/fringe guys.

I'm so annoyed. I feel like if we don't change trajectory and timing of our plans (ie, steepen our growth curve) clubs like ATL and LAFC will blow by us within a few years. Ugggghhhhh.

 

[Christopher Jee]

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm kind of fed up with the rhetoric. Why not just come out and say it? Why not find something inspiring and motivating within the situation to avoid the funeral? If I'm remembering correctly, his pre-match summary was the usual phrasal soup of "we try to play our game"'s and "we just try to win the next match" and "change nothing about our preparation". You know the rest. If it's an experiment, call it an experiment. Break the fourth wall and maybe respect the intelligence of your fan base. I don't think I have any kind of emotional attachment to Vieira because he hasn't made the overtures.

And maybe actually experiment. If you don't adapt your game to your circumstances then you are aren't a coach, you are a glorified copy and paste script.

The good:

• Lewis had his moments. Showed some rust but he looked hungry and gutsy and I'll take it over the alternative for now.
• I liked the look of Saad. He's smooth. Most of his turnovers came from misreading the movement of his team mates, which will happen when you make 9 changes to the line up.

The redeeming:

• What I just said. I don't think any player individually had a terrible game. Our philosophy relies on fluency and teamwork and is prone to weak links. We controlled the match but made a ton of errors on both sides of the ball due to a lack of cohesion, and we got punished.

The bad:

• The arrogance of overhauling a line up and expecting to do OK without changing a thing about our approach to the game.
• Alternatively, not caring enough to approach this game with a sense of pride. If we can't get up for a match against our most bitter rivals in a competition we've never won in after a similarly demoralizing defeat to them, then I don't even know why any of this is supposed to matter.

On the "good" side, forgot to mention the supporters, who managed to make a good time of it.

I felt a bit bad when Ibeagha started walking in our direction and got booed into turning around. Tommy came over anyway, and Chanot stayed at the top of the 18 for ages doing his best Lorus Karius. I wouldn't boo the players, but Vieira deservedly got some stick.

I understand the lack of USL side, the embryonic status of the academy and all of that, but if you are playing with inferior personnel, there are ways to make it a battle. Vieira would probably argue that they were getting valuable practice playing "the City way", but I would argue that it was a missed opportunity to learn how to win when you can't just buy a better squad.

 

[canchon]

Let’s compare two players: Bezecourt and Awuah.

Bezecourt plays every week for USL team and has gotten time with the first team (due to CCL rotation).

Awuah practices and PV says “he is looking good” but hasn’t played more than a few mop up minutes this year.

It shows.

 

[Schwallacus]

Chanot's case is interesting. In the first half he looked rusty as fuck and terrible, misplacing passes and under hitting a lot of them too. He kind of showed up a little better in the second half, powering through people and hauling ass to stop RBNJ on a counter like the Chanot of old.

I'm sure the miserable first half performance wasn't just rust, as he is apparently going through something. However, if what's happening in your personal life is affecting your work, take some more time. Does it suck missing a big important cog in the team? Yeah. But if he isn't capable of giving us 100% bad-ass steamroller Chanot, I'm fine with him taking time to deal with it. Come back with a clear(er) head.

 

[canchon]

One other thing from last nights game - wow has Chanot fallen off a cliff. He was beaten for the set piece goal and I remember another play where he just fell down and basically gifted them a goal (thanks to muyl for not knowing how to shoot).

I know he is dealing with some personal issues so I hope he gets them resolved soon. It’s a shame to see him this way knowing how well he can play.

 

[roxfontaine]

I'm so annoyed. I feel like if we don't change trajectory and timing of our plans (ie, steepen our growth curve) clubs like ATL and LAFC will blow by us within a few years.

Atlanta has already blown by us. They did absolutely everything right. With the GIANT caveat that they did it where it cost a fraction of what it would cost to do the same here.

I repeat: NYC is everything and nothing.

 

[Christopher Jee]

Chanot's case is interesting. In the first half he looked rusty as fuck and terrible, misplacing passes and under hitting a lot of them too. He kind of showed up a little better in the second half, powering through people and hauling ass to stop RBNJ on a counter like the Chanot of old.

I'm sure the miserable first half performance wasn't just rust, as he is apparently going through something. However, if what's happening in your personal life is affecting your work, take some more time. Does it suck missing a big important cog in the team? Yeah. But if he isn't capable of giving us 100% bad-ass steamroller Chanot, I'm fine with him taking time to deal with it. Come back with a clear(er) head.

I dunno, maybe he would have to play his way through if anyway.

One other thing from last nights game - wow has Chanot fallen off a cliff. He was beaten for the set piece goal and I remember another play where he just fell down and basically gifted them a goal (thanks to muyl for not knowing how to shoot).

I know he is dealing with some personal issues so I hope he gets them resolved soon. It’s a shame to see him this way knowing how well he can play.

If you're talking about the second goal, we have been getting owned on zonal marking off corners consistently. I don't think it's a Chanot-specific thing.

 

[Schwallacus]

I dunno, maybe he would have to play his way through if anyway.

If you're talking about the second goal, we have been getting owned on zonal marking off corners consistently. I don't think it's a Chanot-specific thing.

If he wants to get his mind off it, I need to see more. Saw some of it in the second half, but I need to see Chanot breaking opponents in half across a whole game, not in spurts here and there.

Agree with your second response, that's not on Chanot. That's on Vieira's reliance toward zonal marking which doesn't solve anything and just makes more problems on set pieces.

 

[canchon]

Agree with your second response, that's not on Chanot. That's on Vieira's reliance toward zonal marking which doesn't solve anything and just makes more problems on set pieces.

The NYCFC players are all standing in their own 18 watching the “space” that they have to mark. RBNJ starts their players outside the area and then overload one area and basically run to where the players aren’t. It looked like Chanot was going backwards to try to mark Long who smartly ran into the space behind him. So simple to beat, stupid system.

 

[Fantazma]

Like others, what bothered me the most about last night is the confirmation of how far Medina is from an Almiron or Barco right now. I am a huge proponent of MLS 3.0 DPs. But that means being closer to polished than project or you are playing from behind.

i think its because medina is just not used to the physical play here. Almiron played in argentina where they hack you time after time, he needs to practice those one on ones though

 

[mgarbowski]

Atlanta has already blown by us. They did absolutely everything right. With the GIANT caveat that they did it where it cost a fraction of what it would cost to do the same here.

I repeat: NYC is everything and nothing.

Atlanta had advantages with their stadium (both due to their city and sharing with another team owned by the same guy), and there were unaffiliated local academies ready for them to absorb. But, their location has nothing to do with the way Blank and his team completely reinvented how to acquire MLS DP players, by going for comparatively low salary young players with high acquisition costs. That was creative, disruptive, and took major guts and cash reserves. Also, based on the relative record on DP and TAM acquisitions, 1 Tata Martino > CFG's entire worldwide scouting network.

 

[roxfontaine]

Atlanta had advantages with their stadium (both due to their city and sharing with another team owned by the same guy), and there were unaffiliated local academies ready for them to absorb. But, their location has nothing to do with the way Blank and his team completely reinvented how to acquire MLS DP players, by going for comparatively low salary young players with high acquisition costs. That was creative, disruptive, and took major guts and cash reserves. Also, based on the relative record on DP and TAM acquisitions, 1 Tata Martino > CFG's entire worldwide scouting network.

Indeed. I was just kinda lumping it all together but you're right. That is separate entirely.

 

[Fantazma]

Atlanta had advantages with their stadium (both due to their city and sharing with another team owned by the same guy), and there were unaffiliated local academies ready for them to absorb. But, their location has nothing to do with the way Blank and his team completely reinvented how to acquire MLS DP players, by going for comparatively low salary young players with high acquisition costs. That was creative, disruptive, and took major guts and cash reserves. Also, based on the relative record on DP and TAM acquisitions, 1 Tata Martino > CFG's entire worldwide scouting network.

tata facilitates everything scouting wise....it was good move by their FO though.

 

[Gotham Gator]

There are ways we could have hit the ground running a lot better. We could have adopted existing local youth academies; we could have immediately invested in an existing local team to be our second division, etc.

However, CFG has a very specific way of doing things. They like to green field academies, affiliated clubs - all that sort of thing - so that it fits within their larger system. For us, as fans, it can be frustrating, but there is a lot of good that comes with the CFG ownership, and you have to take the bitter with the sweet.

 

[Ulrich]

However, CFG has a very specific way of doing things. you have to take the bitter with the sweet.

No, you don't.

I haven't hit the point where I check out, but I'm not sure I will ever give the CFG the benefit of the doubt anymore. All I've ever heard from them is that they have the resources to make an impact, but let's be real, they haven't opened the purse strings and they're getting beaten to the punch every time because they overestimated what they're worth to the the league regarding their ambition.

• Our scouting department is getting beaten by other clubs. ATL revolutionized the use of the young DP and CFG thought they could play the game, but they screwed up big time with Medina. At best, we're only getting hits on 50% of our players, and for a team that doesn't have home-growns contributing while living by a roster of foreign players, that's not good enough.
• Our training facility is blah compared to other recent facilities opened.
• Our soccer specific stadium looks amazing on paper and that's the best we've got
  
• Our coach has signed a contract with another club while publicly denying it & maintaining that the rumors haven't distracted the players (hint: they have because the team's slide started when the rumors started)
• Our roster isn't designed to be competitive in the one domestic Cup that provides a path to the intercontinental Cup
• Our season tickets aren't re-sellable because the team made a side deal with a resale agent that doesn't connect seamlessly with the league's resale agent, while at the same time undercutting prices with ridiculous promotional sales and a glut in the inventory.
• Our bench players rot on the bench because there's no place for them to get minutes and it shows.
• Our best academy player won't sign most likely for fear of the above point.

 

[mgarbowski]

There are ways we could have hit the ground running a lot better. We could have adopted existing local youth academies; we could have immediately invested in an existing local team to be our second division, etc.

However, CFG has a very specific way of doing things. They like to green field academies, affiliated clubs - all that sort of thing - so that it fits within their larger system. For us, as fans, it can be frustrating, but there is a lot of good that comes with the CFG ownership, and you have to take the bitter with the sweet.

MLS expansion ownership/management ranked 2015 and later:

1. Atlanta
2. LAFC
3. NYCFC
4. Minnesota
5. Orlando