EMPIRE CUP

Josh M

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Hey guys! Not necessarily an NYCFC fan here but I am a huge fan of all things NY Soccer and was thinking about how cool it would be to have an Empire Cup for NY soccer teams like the Cascadia Cup that they have for teams in the Northwest. The cup would be played between NYCFC, NY Cosmos and the Red Bulls. If you're not sure how you feel about the idea, watch this awesome video to get you pumped.
 

MyBoyVilla

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Too bad the Cosmos will never be in MLS or it would be a great idea. Luckily we have a similar idea that should be just as good... unless you are a Cosmos supporter, in which case nothing has gone your way in quite a while.
 
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Gene

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The Cosmos doomed themselves to Division II out there in Nassau County. Tossing them into the mix would be like adding the Brooklyn Cyclones to any competition the Mets and Yankees would have.
 

Falastur

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Isn't the point of the supporters cups that the team with the best record between the teams from their MLS games wins the trophy? Including the cosmos would require arranging games to be played outside of normal competition, would it not? Is that even practical?
 

MikeDatTiger

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It would be practical. MLS teams have plenty of time to schedule midweek friendlies (which is why all the European teams can come over and play a bunch of matches with MLS teams during the MLS season).

But wise? Cosmos supporters have made it clear that they're opposed to NYCFC. While I understand their frustration at not getting the call-up, that should be directed at their owner, not NYCFC. But if they're going to try to take support away from NYCFC then NYCFC or RBNY shouldn't help out their profile by playing a Cup match with them. Playing a Cup Match elevates them as an equal or a rival.

While as a fan I think it would be fun, for the business of NYCFC the smart move is going to be to ignore the Cosmos as a minor league team unworthy of its notice.

Now, let's see if the USSF can manage a few draws of Cosmos v. NYCFC/RBNY in the US Open.
 

Vinjay

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It would be practical. MLS teams have plenty of time to schedule midweek friendlies (which is why all the European teams can come over and play a bunch of matches with MLS teams during the MLS season).

But wise? Cosmos supporters have made it clear that they're opposed to NYCFC. While I understand their frustration at not getting the call-up, that should be directed at their owner, not NYCFC. But if they're going to try to take support away from NYCFC then NYCFC or RBNY shouldn't help out their profile by playing a Cup match with them. Playing a Cup Match elevates them as an equal or a rival.

While as a fan I think it would be fun, for the business of NYCFC the smart move is going to be to ignore the Cosmos as a minor league team unworthy of its notice.

Now, let's see if the USSF can manage a few draws of Cosmos v. NYCFC/RBNY in the US Open.

That would most likely annoy them more than anything :D. Considering the ignorance however (as you say not blaming their owners) its perhaps the best way to deal with them at present. You can't really call Cosmos a complete irrelevance considering they have the likes of Pele associated with them. There's few things sadder than fans of clubs who endlessly obsess over a much smaller locally geographical club as a rival. Cosmos will most likely get bigger and they probably will become a force in MLS but right now that isn't the case. Until they get into the MLS there's absolutely no threat there at all. The US Open Cup is a different matter of course but that would be something to discuss if/when the time comes.
 
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MikeDatTiger

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Complete irrelevance might be harsh, but NYCFC can handle the team that Pele owns and used to play for by countering with the team that Jozy Altidore (or insert your other famous DP of choise) plays for.
 
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Gene

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Cosmos will most likely get bigger and they probably will become a force in MLS but right now that isn't the case.
With all due respects the prospect of either happening are slim to none and (as the old saying goes) Slim just left town.
 

MikeDatTiger

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With all due respects the prospect of either happening are slim to none and (as the old saying goes) Slim just left town.

Yep. Think about what would have to happen for Cosmos to join MLS.

1) MLS becomes a promotion/relegation league with NASL as its second league, and Cosmos win promotion.

God knows how far along this is, if ever. A league that is still concerned about salary caps and that is earning a lot of keeps by getting money for franchises isn't exactly looking to screw the owners (including the new ones of NYCFC) by diminishing the value of the franchise by allowing relegation.

2) MLS decides New York needs a third soccer team and chooses the Cosmos.

Right now there is only one league with three teams in NY/NJ area: the NHL (Rangers, Islanders, and Devils). Everyone else has two (Jets/Giants NFL; Yanks/Mets MLB; Knicks/Nets NBA). For this to happen not only does NYC need to show it can support three MLS teams, it has to show that a third team in an existing MLS market is better for the league than a new market in say San Antonio or St. Louis.

Ironically, the only way that possibility even becomes conceivable is it the NYCFC and RBNY franchises start doing really well. Although I suppose there is the possibility that:

3) Either NYCFC or RBNY fail, and Cosmos then lobby to become the NY2.

This would likely require New York to prove it can't handle 2 MLS markets forcing one of the NY clubs to fold or relocate.

4) MCFC, realizing the MLS has become a threat to the EPL, drops NYCFC or the Red Bull heir sells off the franchise for the sake of buying a zoo of kangaroos or whatever it is Australian heirs buy and the Cosmos rise to take the place

Moving on.

5) the Red Bulls realize that in the wake of NYCFC that being a club for the sole purpose of a marketing venture isn't a great idea and therefore buy out the Cosmos logo/franchise so that they have an actual crest and name apart from the brand on their shirt rather than reverting to the Metrostars.

That this is maybe the best shot they have bodes well for how unrealistic this is. Cosmos had the chance and passed.
 
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Gene

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5) the Red Bulls realize that in the wake of NYCFC that being a club for the sole purpose of a marketing venture isn't a great idea and therefore buy out the Cosmos logo/franchise so that they have an actual crest and name apart from the brand on their shirt rather than reverting to the Metrostars.
Quite frankly that's a scenario that never occurred to me. What a slap in the face to Cosmos fans that would be.

You know, the guys who would never support the Metros because they played in NJ and weren't proper NYC team. The guys who wouldn't support Red Bull because they played in NJ, weren't a proper NYC team and were nothing but a brand extension of a fizzy drink.

On second thought, that would be pretty effin' funny.
 

MyBoyVilla

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It would be practical. MLS teams have plenty of time to schedule midweek friendlies (which is why all the European teams can come over and play a bunch of matches with MLS teams during the MLS season).

But wise? Cosmos supporters have made it clear that they're opposed to NYCFC. While I understand their frustration at not getting the call-up, that should be directed at their owner, not NYCFC. But if they're going to try to take support away from NYCFC then NYCFC or RBNY shouldn't help out their profile by playing a Cup match with them. Playing a Cup Match elevates them as an equal or a rival.

While as a fan I think it would be fun, for the business of NYCFC the smart move is going to be to ignore the Cosmos as a minor league team unworthy of its notice.

Now, let's see if the USSF can manage a few draws of Cosmos v. NYCFC/RBNY in the US Open.
I don't see how that is practical. There is no way you can convince the 3 NY teams to create their own out of season cup games to win a supporter-created cup.

The idea of the cup, as Falastur Falastur correctly pointed out, is that regularly games between the competing teams count towards the cup standings and whoever is on top at the end wins. That is how the Cascadia Cup works, and that is the only way we can actually create a cup.

So, no, there is no way the Cosmos can be involved.
 

MikeDatTiger

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Practical in the sense that there are ample opportunities either pre-season or during the season for such a Cup to be played. Practical in the sense that RBNY/NYCFC are going to waste time/risk injuries on a friendly that only benefits the Cosmos? No, you're right it's not practical. I thought that was clear in my post; mea culpa if it wasn't.
 

einwindir

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I'm sure we'd all love to see a Cosmos n NYCFC game but it won't happen.

The way the MLS Supporters Cup works is that the highest ranked team will start off with the cup. The winner of the next regular season game against a member of the cup (Philly, Boston, NJ) will then "take home" the cup. Then the winner of the next regular season game against a member of the cup will determine who takes it home.

RBNY holds cup
Next Week RBNY play Revs.
Revs wins; takes cup home
Next Week Revs play Union.
Revs win; takes cup home
Next week Revs play NYC
NYCFC wins; takes cup home

at least that's how I understand it.
 

Falastur

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I was under the impression that it was only awarded annually: you take two or three teams and isolate their results in the league against each other - completely disregard all games played against teams not in the cup. The team with the best record wins the cup. So if you have Team A and Team B, who play each other home and away, A wins at home 1-0 but B can only draw 2-2 in the return leg, then A wins with a 1-1-0 record against B's 0-1-1.
 

MikeDatTiger

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I was under the impression that it was only awarded annually: you take two or three teams and isolate their results in the league against each other - completely disregard all games played against teams not in the cup. The team with the best record wins the cup. So if you have Team A and Team B, who play each other home and away, A wins at home 1-0 but B can only draw 2-2 in the return leg, then A wins with a 1-1-0 record against B's 0-1-1.
Yeah that's how the Cascadia Cup works. I know the Dallas/Houston rivalry does whoever wins last, but that's because they play once a year because they're in different conferences. I'm assuming NYCFC and RBNY will be in the same conf, so a standings between them could work, or you could do last winner. My understanding is that these things are up to the supporter's group so they can make the rules.
 

MyBoyVilla

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I'm sure we'd all love to see a Cosmos n NYCFC game but it won't happen.

The way the MLS Supporters Cup works is that the highest ranked team will start off with the cup. The winner of the next regular season game against a member of the cup (Philly, Boston, NJ) will then "take home" the cup. Then the winner of the next regular season game against a member of the cup will determine who takes it home.

RBNY holds cup
Next Week RBNY play Revs.
Revs wins; takes cup home
Next Week Revs play Union.
Revs win; takes cup home
Next week Revs play NYC
NYCFC wins; takes cup home

at least that's how I understand it.

That is an option, but the result will be that 50% of the rivalry matches are not for the cup. And the cup is less meaningful because it only requires 1 win to capture, and it can be won many times per season.

The way our cup should work is how the Cascadia Cup works: The club with the best record in games against its rivals over the course of the season.

For example, if we use last season with RBNY, Union, and Revs:

3/16 PHI 1 - 0 NE
3/30 NY 2 - 1 PHI
4/20 NY 4 - 1 NE
4/27 NE 2 - 0 PHI
5/11 NE 1 - 1 NY
6/23 PHI 3 - 0 NY
8/17 NY 0 - 0 PHI
8/25 NE 5 - 1 PHI
10/5 NY 2 - 2 NE

The table would be:
NY: 2-1-3 (9 PTS)
NE: 2-2-2 (8 PTS)
PHI: 2-3-1 (7 PTS)

With RBNY clinching the cup on the final match of the cup with a draw against NE.

Just throw in one more team: NYCFC, and that is your Colonial Cup.
 

Falastur

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Yeah that's how the Cascadia Cup works. I know the Dallas/Houston rivalry does whoever wins last, but that's because they play once a year because they're in different conferences. I'm assuming NYCFC and RBNY will be in the same conf, so a standings between them could work, or you could do last winner. My understanding is that these things are up to the supporter's group so they can make the rules.

How exactly is it organised? Do the SGs of the two clubs have to agree it? Somehow I don't see the New Jersey Walking Adverts being very excited about including us in anything. They seem pretty antipathetic to us - which, I guess, is how true rivalries should be. To stray back to the subject of Manchester City, for instance, you would never, but never, get City and United's fanbases to agree to a cup of this kind between them, because both sides would refuse to talk to each other in the first place. Neither would want to join something the other one started. But maybe American SGs are much more willing to co-operate?
 

MyBoyVilla

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How exactly is it organised? Do the SGs of the two clubs have to agree it? Somehow I don't see the New Jersey Walking Adverts being very excited about including us in anything. They seem pretty antipathetic to us - which, I guess, is how true rivalries should be. To stray back to the subject of Manchester City, for instance, you would never, but never, get City and United's fanbases to agree to a cup of this kind between them, because both sides would refuse to talk to each other in the first place. Neither would want to join something the other one started. But maybe American SGs are much more willing to co-operate?
I really don't see that being an obstacle. I think we would be able to communicate this idea to other SGs no problem. We don't need to be friends to do this, just buy a trophy and have someone keep standings.

They may not like the idea for other reasons, but because they hate us? I don't know. I think if there is a way to ramp up the rivalry and make it more meaningful and exciting for everyone, this is a way. They did it in the Northwest despite the rivalry. I don't think rivals in the US traditionally ignore the other side, they like conflict and argument and competition. In fact if there is a way to rub it in more that they are superior, they will jump to it