People try to put us d-down (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
Just because we get around (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
Things they do look awful c-c-cold (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
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- Thread starter CCMore
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Just because we get around (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
Things they do look awful c-c-cold (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
I hope I die before I get old (Talkin' 'bout my generation)
Pirlo & Lampard are not the same type of player...but are the same in regards to where they are with their career and the speed/stamina. You can easily make it work with both of them, but we do not have the pieces around them to do that and it doesn't make sense to invest in that obviously. It would make sense for one of them to go and that would have to be Lampard. It doesn't have to do with his ability (I think he looks pretty good when he plays) it's that he can't stay healthy. Plus if PV is committed to playing from the back, Pirlo is his guy. I just don't understand why Mix isn't playing next to him...sure he runs up top too much, but he's show he can track back defensively.
Nevertheless, there is no way CFG lets Lampard get cut. Not gonna happen. Let him play the year out spot starting and subbing in.
Pirlo looked the best he has for us with Iraola behind/next to him. Needs someone competent with ball to keep the whole defense off him.
I agree. We were playing good looking soccer with Iraola there. That's the best both of them looked.
Respectfully....
"Easily?" Ok -- show me the tactic. I'm pretty certain that there isn't one.
I'm just an amateur Football Manager, but it really can't work.
Lampard's positioning in the attack means that he can't track back to defend. Pirlo is already a weak defender, and has shown his best play (for this club) in the more advanced role that Frank has to occupy.
Even if Bravo is your deep midfielder, you only have one midfielder willing or capable to make tackles. So you have to drop your wingers and fullbacks, taking the teeth out of Vieira's attack -- otherwise, teams will just skip the midfield by playing the long ball over the top. Bravo's up in the attack, and our high line is getting roasted on the counter by MLS pace.
This is not a winning tactic. I'm not arguing that every player has to be a standout defender, but our pitch makes the bunker and counter a dominant tactic. Any lineup with both Pirlo and Lampard will be seriously susceptible to the bunker and counter.
It's just not a winning gameplan.
Edit: The only way that I can really see this working is if you play Lampard as a sort of deep lying forward (which I'm not confident that he can play), and move to a 4-1-3-2. But that takes wingers out of the system, and Vieira's shown he really likes having wingers -- despite the fact that they're not as effective in Yankee Stadium.
I really do think that the narrow 4-4-2 diamond with a counterattacking philosophy is a system that can work in YS, provided you have the right players (and mentality) for it. Unfortunately, we never have.
I missed last game. Three weeks ago the sub was drooling over Bravo. Is Iraola considered the better choice now?
I think Bravo is the better defensive option for MLS, strong, good in the air and very physical.
However I think Iraola fits what Vieira wants to do better, move the ball forward from the back.
We'd have to see him again. I don't know if it just worked or if it was Orlando letting it happen...but having a seasoned guy next to Pirlo definitely worked. It's the best the midfield looked in a while.
I think Iraola looked good in a match where we were always destined to control the ball and played a very important role this weekend. I would be highly concerned about him playing that position in a different style match. There might be spots where he is the best option, but I do think that playing him there in a more combative matches and, perhaps generally, on the road, will be a lesser version of the problems we had with Pirlo back there early in the season. He has better defensive instincts and interest in defending than Pirlo, but he doesn't cover ground, is light-weight in the tackle and has no aerial presence.
I disagree with your disagreement...
You could go 3-5-2 with Pirlo as a 2nd DM and Lampard as the CAM. If you had Villa up top with a traditional target man it can work. I would be interested in seeing that with Mat and RJ in the LM/RM role and Bravo playing alongside Pirlo. Could work with minimal personnel changes.
You don't want to take away the wingers? then go 4-3-3 False 9 with Frank playing a CF role. Villa at LW and a speedster on the RW. You have to have kick ass high work rate - both way CMs for that to work. Villa isn't a real striker anyway...so pushed left and a holding forward of Lampard's caliper isn't crazy. I know that's not his thing...but this isn't the PL either.
The league is weak enough where a 3-5-2 can dominate...but PV wants a 4-3-3 attacking style. Either way it could work here.
So what you are telling me is...no matter what, one could never make Pirlo and Lampard work? With the right personnel around, it's not as hard as you think.
Bravo's the better tackler and provides better cover, but Iraola serves as a second deep playmaker. It keeps teams from man-marking Pirlo out of the game while still providing a capable defensive presence. He really helped us to play out of the back this past week.
I don't know that he's a long-term solution there, but he's very capable at that spot.
Not trying to be rude here, but you keep telling me "it's not that hard to make it work" without really giving a system that works without massive turnover of the roster and a serious mentality change.
(See how far everyone has to move up the pitch to make a difference in the attack here? You're asking Pirlo to run a lot (which he can't do), Lampard to track back consistently (which will be a struggle), and Allen and Matarrita will have to have superhuman stamina. I rate both of them highly, but you're asking a lot.)
You're already talking about major personnel changes to make it actually work, and that's not something that I addressed in my post. Even then, I don't love that idea, and I don't see Vieira playing with a target man in a direct system any time soon. (Although I do agree that the pitch requires a system of that sort.)
Mata is great going forward, but is not solid enough with his positioning to be dependable holding down the entire left side. And a right side with Pirlo providing defensive cover for a wingback/wide defensive winger neutralizes him in our attack as an advanced playmaker, which is the only area he's been remotely helpful for us at this club. Direct teams will destroy us on the wings (no one to cover their positions when they're caught upfield). They'd play physical against the midfield to wear it down early.
Lampard is still just a slow box-to-box guy, and doesn't have the pace or the stamina to play that sort of a role all year.
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The key element of Vieira's system isn't necessarily the formation, but rather the high press. I think Vieira is attached to a 3-man front line because it's easier to press from that formation in the opponent's half.
Another side note, the 4-3-3 and a high press are spreading around MLS and is working because, in general, defense has been neglected in favor of offense when roster building. Forcing defenders to turn the ball over is not unique to NYCFC's opponents, much less Yankee Stadium specifically.
I like the system we have, we just need some time to fix the personnel. I'd make some minor changes for now to fit our players in the short term (Poku as a target CF, less play out of the back and more long passing), but I'm okay with sitting in a 4-3-3 and molding the team's personnel to the system over the summer and winter transfer windows (starting with GK and CBs, then new attackers in opening DP spots).
Another side note, the 4-3-3 and a high press are spreading around MLS and is working because, in general, defense has been neglected in favor of offense when roster building. Forcing defenders to turn the ball over is not unique to NYCFC's opponents, much less Yankee Stadium specifically.
I like the system we have, we just need some time to fix the personnel. I'd make some minor changes for now to fit our players in the short term (Poku as a target CF, less play out of the back and more long passing), but I'm okay with sitting in a 4-3-3 and molding the team's personnel to the system over the summer and winter transfer windows (starting with GK and CBs, then new attackers in opening DP spots).
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Bravo's the better tackler and provides better cover, but Iraola serves as a second deep playmaker. It keeps teams from man-marking Pirlo out of the game while still providing a capable defensive presence. He really helped us to play out of the back this past week.
I don't know that he's a long-term solution there, but he's very capable at that spot.
Not trying to be rude here, but you keep telling me "it's not that hard to make it work" without really giving a system that works without massive turnover of the roster and a serious mentality change.
(See how far everyone has to move up the pitch to make a difference in the attack here? You're asking Pirlo to run a lot (which he can't do), Lampard to track back consistently (which will be a struggle), and Allen and Matarrita will have to have superhuman stamina. I rate both of them highly, but you're asking a lot.)
You're already talking about major personnel changes to make it actually work, and that's not something that I addressed in my post. Even then, I don't love that idea, and I don't see Vieira playing with a target man in a direct system any time soon. (Although I do agree that the pitch requires a system of that sort.)
Mata is great going forward, but is not solid enough with his positioning to be dependable holding down the entire left side. And a right side with Pirlo providing defensive cover for a wingback/wide defensive winger neutralizes him in our attack as an advanced playmaker, which is the only area he's been remotely helpful for us at this club. Direct teams will destroy us on the wings (no one to cover their positions when they're caught upfield). They'd play physical against the midfield to wear it down early.
Lampard is still just a slow box-to-box guy, and doesn't have the pace or the stamina to play that sort of a role all year.
Well, I'm not trying to be rude either but did you miss the part where I said
"but we do not have the pieces around them to do that and it doesn't make sense to invest in that obviously."
Obviously you would need major turnover. So...I said we don't have the players to make that work and I also said it wasn't worth investing in it...but if a club wanted to make it work, they certainly can.
Dude. I think you are getting all worked up about a hypothetical scenario. A big club with the right surrounding players and money can EASILY make that work. We aren't that.
I'm not worked up at all, Nick. I think though that your line of argument shows that there's really not a way for this to work while Pirlo and Frank are in NYCFC shirts. So what's the point of keeping him around?
We're much better off cutting bait with Frank at the first reasonable opportunity, and moving forward with a designated player that we can reasonably build around. Frank's not a system fit, and his presence keeps us from picking up someone who is. That's the point.
(I also am not sure I agree that I'd call it easy to integrate two incredibly limited players when you would need serious amounts of capital and total roster turnover to have a chance of making it work. That's not something you perform "EASILY" -- modern soccer is athletic, and two non-runners in the midfield is a huge issue.)
Ugh. I said earlier today that there's no reason for both and one should go...that one should be Frank.
Throw Frank with Pirlo's last Juve team where there were legit top level workhorses and it works...but this is dumb now and you are having a different conversation then the one I'm having so let's let it go.
Neither team pressed that much really. That may be why it was a more attractive game to watch all around.
Agreed. IF you absolutely must get all three DPs on the pitch at once, AND you want to play approximately a 4-3-3, the following seems to be the most likely way to do it:
That's using Lampard as a false 9 / target man, and there are more or less obvious subs for the other roles out there (one of which we now know is Iraola in Bravo's slot). Note the triangle between Villa, Pirlo and Lampard.
Just don't tell PV this is really more of a 4-4-2 diamond... I think we'll get away with it.
Agreed. IF you absolutely must get all three DPs on the pitch at once, AND you want to play approximately a 4-3-3, the following seems to be the most likely way to do it:
That's using Lampard as a false 9 / target man, and there are more or less obvious subs for the other roles out there (one of which we now know is Iraola in Bravo's slot). Note the triangle between Villa, Pirlo and Lampard.
Just don't tell PV this is really more of a 4-4-2 diamond... I think we'll get away with it.
Yeah kind of what I was picturing. Frank could probably do it...if healthy.
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