Toronto Postmatch

[sbrylski]

I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about regarding Mix. He closed down on guys? Made tackles? Stepped into Pirlo's role? I didn't see any of that.

On the heat maps, Mix shows up higher than anyone else on the pitch, even Mullins. In my eyes, he spent the entire game lightly sprinting at Bradley and Toronto's defenders, forcing them to pass it on to the next guy before he got there. He was out of position and ineffective.

What tackles did he make? Whoscored registered one for him. Meanwhile, Bravo registered 5, and at least two of them were after 20 yard sprints where he closed out and knocked the ball away with a perfect slide. Even Poku had 4! Because when Poku finds himself next to the ball carrier, he is actually effective at muscling the guy off the ball.

And with the ball, Mix was dispossessed four times - seemingly the only four times he pushed forward. Multiple times he dribbled forward only to get in trouble and lose it. He had zero key passes, zero through balls, and was 0-for-2 on crossing attempts. The only positives on his stat sheet was one accurate long ball, that one shot that bounced right to him, and a solid 83% passing rate - but most were sideways and backwards with nothing even close to looking like a pass bringing the ball into an attacking position:

Mix passing chart v Toronto: http://i.imgur.com/7WO8Zhm.png

In comparison, Bravo had more passes (47 to 36) at a higher success rate (89% to 83%) which includes 6 long balls, 5 of which were completed! That's really good! Bravo was obviously twice the player Mix was tonight.

I didn't think Poku played great either in distribution, but even he found opportunities to impact the game with his goal and handful of tackles.

I thought Mix was awful. A little too slow, a little too out of position, and a little too out of sync with everyone on offense.

 

[sbrylski]

So Poku scored and then was at fault for their goal. I know everyone likes him but i would like to see him traded as its clear he doesn't care enough to put any effort in defensively and i would rather less talented players like Lopez play because atleast they give 100%.

http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...to-fc-vs-new-york-city-fc/details/video/65740

Watching the goal again, you can definitely see Poku just standing about 10 yards away from his mark (who received the cross), waiting to make an offensive break and not caring the slightest about playing defense.

But White is just as much to blame. It's his mark that actually scores the goal. He just stands there and watches the cross come in, watches the pass come across, and watches his net it, without moving more than two feet.

 

[Gene]

.......There was a deflection from a Toronto defender which is why they said he put the flag down.

That's the way I saw it, but the never showed a replay to confirm it one way or another.

 

[George]

http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...to-fc-vs-new-york-city-fc/details/video/65740

Watching the goal again, you can definitely see Poku just standing about 10 yards away from his mark (who received the cross), waiting to make an offensive break and not caring the slightest about playing defense.

But White is just as much to blame. It's his mark that actually scores the goal. He just stands there and watches the cross come in, watches the pass come across, and watches his net it, without moving more than two feet.

Yeah i have no idea what white was doing, its clear he must improve his concentration but Poku annoyed me more because this happens all the time as he doesn't care enough to follow his marker

 

[SoupInNYC]

That's the way I saw it, but the never showed a replay to confirm it one way or another.

But shouldn't that not matter if it was only a deflection? Its not like the Toronto defender played the ball back, I think that was pretty clear.

I actually dont fault Moor for how pissed he was. And you could hear it on the broadcast too. I was surprised he wasn't given a yellow there as the ref looked really pissed at the amount of yelling Moor was doing.

 

[sbrylski]

Yeah i have no idea what white was doing, its clear he must improve his concentration but Poku annoyed me more because this happens all the time as he doesn't care enough to follow his marker

Happens all the time to White too: http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...ity-fc-vs-montreal-impact/details/video/63484

 

[ktdNYCFC]

a solid 83% passing rate - but most were sideways and backwards with nothing even close to looking like a pass bringing the ball into an attacking position:

Mix passing chart v Toronto: http://i.imgur.com/7WO8Zhm.png

The ghost of Grabavoy has taken hold of his soul. HE MUST BE CLEANSED!

 

[Gene]

But shouldn't that not matter if it was only a deflection? Its not like the Toronto defender played the ball back, I think that was pretty clear.

I actually dont fault Moor for how pissed he was. And you could hear it on the broadcast too. I was surprised he wasn't given a yellow there as the ref looked really pissed at the amount of yelling Moor was doing.

In all honesty I don't know the exact rule, but I wanted to see a replay because I thought Mullins was in an onside position to begin with.

For lack of a better way to phrase it, are there different types of deflections? It wasn't as if it was an accidental deflect, the defender made an honest play on the ball and just didn't control it. Does that make a difference or not?

 

[NickA]

Thinking about how high Mix was playing, Mendoza's inability to use his right foot and Mehdi not really playing the winger position well...

Maybe Mehdi should have played as a CM from the beginning, Mendoza at left so he can cross the ball and Mix in the RW. That may have worked better imo.

 

[Ulrich]

That really was bizarre and surprising. It was clearly a card, but a ref should never change his mind based upon the persuasiveness of an interested player. He was awful all-around. He also seemed to make things personal by the way he treated Mullins. He clearly didn't call a foul when Mullins was slew-footed because he was pissed at Mullins for his own conduct.

Bradley is very much a complainer - he likes to dish it out and whines like a stuck pig if he feels slighted. There's definitely going to be a little tension between Mix and he when together in MNT camp - I didn't see the normal handshakes after tackles between them and it was clearly chippy.

 

[Ulrich]

I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about regarding Mix. He closed down on guys? Made tackles? Stepped into Pirlo's role? I didn't see any of that.

On the heat maps, Mix shows up higher than anyone else on the pitch, even Mullins. In my eyes, he spent the entire game lightly sprinting at Bradley and Toronto's defenders, forcing them to pass it on to the next guy before he got there. He was out of position and ineffective.

What tackles did he make? Whoscored registered one for him. Meanwhile, Bravo registered 5, and at least two of them were after 20 yard sprints where he closed out and knocked the ball away with a perfect slide. Even Poku had 4! Because when Poku finds himself next to the ball carrier, he is actually effective at muscling the guy off the ball.

And with the ball, Mix was dispossessed four times - seemingly the only four times he pushed forward. Multiple times he dribbled forward only to get in trouble and lose it. He had zero key passes, zero through balls, and was 0-for-2 on crossing attempts. The only positives on his stat sheet was one accurate long ball, that one shot that bounced right to him, and a solid 83% passing rate - but most were sideways and backwards with nothing even close to looking like a pass bringing the ball into an attacking position:

Mix passing chart v Toronto: http://i.imgur.com/7WO8Zhm.png

In comparison, Bravo had more passes (47 to 36) at a higher success rate (89% to 83%) which includes 6 long balls, 5 of which were completed! That's really good! Bravo was obviously twice the player Mix was tonight.

I didn't think Poku played great either in distribution, but even he found opportunities to impact the game with his goal and handful of tackles.

I thought Mix was awful. A little too slow, a little too out of position, and a little too out of sync with everyone on offense.

Nearly every time Mix dribbled and lost the ball to three defenders, it was because nobody - let me repeat that - nobody opened up for him with angled movement. If it's a 3-on-1 in the midfield, then there should be 2 teammates open to receive passes, but nobody showed for him. Sure he could have blindly passed cross-field, but that should never be the first option - and the first options were standing still out of he passing lanes. When a guy like Mix is running at the D, his teammates should either be making diagonal runs, checking back to him, or overlapping on the outside to draw off a defender.

As to Poku, go watch the replay of Toronto's goal. Poku's man was Josh Williams who ghosted in to the back post and Poku can be seen lightly jogging about 5yrds behind him. That lapse of concentration was a travesty - he wasn't beaten by skill or tactics, he was beaten by a lack of concentration and focus. I'll take Mix's hustle and commitment any day over Poku's moments of brilliance coupled with lapses of concentration and focus. So I know you weren't singing Poku's praises other than noting his moment of brilliance, but really, he was responsible for both goals which equals a push.

 

[Rimil]

Poku should be a forward. I really don't see what quality he had that makes him a midfielder.

When he is a part of a counter attack, he is probably the #1 guy I want on the ball. He can dribble it through a defender and barrel through with his strength and speed or make a key pass (that for the most part connects). Its exciting as hell when this happens and that why I love seeing him on the field, but its pretty clear that if this specific type of break doesn't happen then he is average in our midfield, not worth clamoring over. I don't think the goal he made today was a typical poku goal. If its a part of his arsenal I don't recall seeing it before. So take that goal away and he was forgettable this week.

He makes good offensive passes when he is sitting up top, but if he has to track back deep he doesn't get involved after making his pass. And if he's playing as 1 of 3 midfielders you can't expect him to just sit up top with 3 forwards. I was hoping he could be our yaya toure but he just disappears too often and doesn't dominate the midfield. I'd love to divorce him of his defensive duties and let him play 100% offense. If that means he has to play as a forward then I want to see him get a shot. Maybe he can show that he can collect a ball at the top of the box and slot it in consistently from 18 yards. and at the very least he will still be a part of our counters.

 

[Rimil]

I agree. I was going to say I see him as a CAM or CF, but then deleted everything and started over. He's not a CAM either. A good CAM is a creator (Ozil/Payet). When Poku gets the ball, there's one thing on his mind. You know exactly where he wants to go, and he will go through anyone in his way to get there. He's bloodthirsty for goals, not for creative passes.

Since he's done his first interviews with the team he's said he wants to play like Yaya. Lots of media came out at the start comparing him to Yaya. He's not Yaya, he's a graceful (that shot last night...) wrecking ball.

Yes this! I' didn't see this when i wrote up my comment, that's what I did, I wrote up CAM of CF too and deleted it. Even in those roles he is expected to track back some to collect the ball and that negates his instincts to attack. He needs to be fed the ball and let loose.

 

[sbrylski]

Nearly every time Mix dribbled and lost the ball to three defenders, it was because nobody - let me repeat that - nobody opened up for him with angled movement. If it's a 3-on-1 in the midfield, then there should be 2 teammates open to receive passes, but nobody showed for him. Sure he could have blindly passed cross-field, but that should never be the first option - and the first options were standing still out of he passing lanes. When a guy like Mix is running at the D, his teammates should either be making diagonal runs, checking back to him, or overlapping on the outside to draw off a defender.

Meh, it's a contributing factor, sure. But there's a difference between playing well, which many people are arguing, and playing poorly possibly because his teammates weren't supporting him sufficiently. You're still admitting he played poorly.

As to Poku, go watch the replay of Toronto's goal. Poku's man was Josh Williams who ghosted in to the back post and Poku can be seen lightly jogging about 5yrds behind him. That lapse of concentration was a travesty - he wasn't beaten by skill or tactics, he was beaten by a lack of concentration and focus. I'll take Mix's hustle and commitment any day over Poku's moments of brilliance coupled with lapses of concentration and focus. So I know you weren't singing Poku's praises other than noting his moment of brilliance, but really, he was responsible for both goals which equals a push.

Agreed. I had another comment in here agreeing that he was the primary cause of Toronto's goal (with a major assist from White). My point in bringing up Poku was that he was able to find ways to impact the game (at times). I didn't think Mix impacted the game much at all.

Both looked deserving of their spots on the bench.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Meh, it's a contributing factor, sure. But there's a difference between playing well, which many people are arguing, and playing poorly possibly because his teammates weren't supporting him sufficiently. You're still admitting he played poorly.



Agreed. I had another comment in here agreeing that he was the primary cause of Toronto's goal (with a major assist from White). My point in bringing up Poku was that he was able to find ways to impact the game (at times). I didn't think Mix impacted the game much at all.

Both looked deserving of their spots on the bench.

Are you a Lopez fan in that spot?

 

[Ulrich]

Meh, it's a contributing factor, sure. But there's a difference between playing well, which many people are arguing, and playing poorly possibly because his teammates weren't supporting him sufficiently. You're still admitting he played poorly.



Agreed. I had another comment in here agreeing that he was the primary cause of Toronto's goal (with a major assist from White). My point in bringing up Poku was that he was able to find ways to impact the game (at times). I didn't think Mix impacted the game much at all.

Both looked deserving of their spots on the bench.

Where did I say he played poorly? Losing the ball because nobody makes runs isn't playing poorly. It's pointing out the ineffectiveness of his teammates.

 

[sbrylski]

Are you a Lopez fan in that spot?

"Fan" is a strong word, but yes I can see what he brings to the table and why Vieira has been selecting him. I said somewhere else that Lopez's job is to make our 3-man midfield feel like four, and I think he does that well. Literally anything else from him is a bonus though.

Where did I say he played poorly? Losing the ball because nobody makes runs isn't playing poorly. It's pointing out the ineffectiveness of his teammates.

Well, admitting that he lost the ball a number of times. The argument then becomes why he struggled to advance the ball, not whether he struggled.

I'm definitely going to agree with you that Mix surrounded by the regular starters is going to play better than when surrounded by the B-team. That's the case with pretty much everyone. But doesn't a true A-teamer make the players around him better? That's the crux of my complaint and why I contrasted him with Poku, who played with B-teamers but still found a way to make an impact.

Again, neither showed me enough to want to start them, however.

 

[Ulrich]

"Fan" is a strong word, but yes I can see what he brings to the table and why Vieira has been selecting him. I said somewhere else that Lopez's job is to make our 3-man midfield feel like four, and I think he does that well. Literally anything else from him is a bonus though.



Well, admitting that he lost the ball a number of times. The argument then becomes why he struggled to advance the ball, not whether he struggled.

I'm definitely going to agree with you that Mix surrounded by the regular starters is going to play better than when surrounded by the B-team. That's the case with pretty much everyone. But doesn't a true A-teamer make the players around him better? That's the crux of my complaint and why I contrasted him with Poku, who played with B-teamers but still found a way to make an impact.

Again, neither showed me enough to want to start them, however.

Geez, just because a player loses the ball doesn't mean they played poorly - that is the absolute worst black/white myopic interpretation ever. Seriously, you're using tunnel vision if that's the result you're coming up with. Go watch Messi, CR, and others lose the ball and fail to connect on passes. It happens to every player in every game.

 

[SteveV]

A few additional observations.

I agree with those who liked Mix's performance. He was very aggressive in closing down opponents when they had the ball. There are 5 guys up top who should be doing that, and it often appeared that he was the only one that was putting in the effort. It's also worth pointing out that we signed him, played him, and then signed a world class, legendary guy who does mostly the same thing. If not for Pirlo, Mix would have led the CM for us and done well, I think.

Poku obviously gets praise for scoring an amazing goal, and he was dangerous at other times too. I continue to believe he is best at being a WF on this team, allowing him to run at defenders and lay off passes. Indeed, his biggest contributions were when he had switched places with Ballouchy and was cutting in from the left.

Saunders was solid today. He shut down Gio one-on-one, blocked Gio's excellent free kick, made a double save, and certainly wasn't at fault for the goal. I was negative about him for a while, but fair is fair, and if EJ didn't start this game, then Vieira obviously doesn't think that he is that close.

White is a guy that needs to be playing less, IMHO. I like him, and I think he will develop into a solid player for us, but as has been pointed out, he is mistake prone. Not sure why he plays at RB in front of two guys who saw playing time anyway.

I should say that it is hard to get too upset about that goal, because Toronto had earned enough good chances to get one. Plus, it was a great ball in along with two great runs.

Ballouchy is a good guy for certain situations in games. He works hard and can pester an opponent while we have the lead. Don't think he is a starter or even an every game sub. Notable that he was, in my mind, a bit out of position last night.

Bravo, as has been pointed out, was terrific. Note the difference in how our midfield controlled things and broke up play between the Portland and Toronto games, and Toronto was the tougher opponent in this regard, I think.

Worth noting that while we played our B team, Toronto had kind of an A- team as they were missing a few key players. That said, they still had Gio and Brantley in there and were playing to win.

I think we have a great core of younger players who aren't ready to be full time starters yet, but can contribute here and there as they grow their games. I am thinking of guys like Martinez (24), White (25), Poku (24), Mendoza (23), and Mullins (24). That these guys can come in, start, and earn a point in a tough game bodes well for the future. And all that is without mentioning young guys already getting the job done as regular starters: Bravo (22), Allen (26), Mix (25), McNamara (25), Lopez (23), and Shelton (22).

We've had 12 games - 6 at home and 6 away - and we are right where we want to be: close to the top of the table and riding momentum. We now have 4 in a row coming at home. We have to get it done in these games to put us in position for the 2nd half of the season.

Agree with most of this.

Here's what I saw last night:

Very Good: Bravo, Hernandez, Brillant, Saunders, Poku on that one goal
Good: Mix
Meh: Ballouchy, Mendoza, Martinez
Not So Good: White, Mullins, the rest of Poku's game

 

[sbrylski]

Geez, just because a player loses the ball doesn't mean they played poorly - that is the absolute worst black/white myopic interpretation ever. Seriously, you're using tunnel vision if that's the result you're coming up with. Go watch Messi, CR, and others lose the ball and fail to connect on passes. It happens to every player in every game.

Go back to my post at the top of this page that sparked this discussion. I talked about many things Mix did or didn't do.

Of course even good players lose the ball. Usually in some ratio with positive plays or advancing the ball. I even posted Mix's passing chart. I can't find anything he did well, and the only response I've gotten so far is "it's his teammates' fault."

If our players were so bad and therefore impossible for Mix to contribute, how come Mullins had multiple chances on goal? How was Mullins able to make two key passes? How come Bravo was able to complete five long balls forward? How come Poku was able to score? Mix was involved in none of this.

EDIT: Let's try this. Tell me why Mix played well, in your opinion.