2017 Roster Discussion

[NYCFC_Dan]

I'd say even without Lampard we are stronger in just about every position to start this year than all the years past. Insert Harrison to start the season, an above average CB pairing, good young acquisitions to fill midfield gaps. I'd say our weakest spot may be RB.
I think it might be the first time PV has had a team with the potential to play the way he wants.

Even with Okoli, USL MVP, he's likely at he very least an average MLS player. Scored some wonder goals in USL and has a great attitude. Can see it in training videos. He wants to play, wants to have fun, wants to win. Don't think this is our final product yet, that'll take another year or two, but it's the closest we've come to the product the FO wants to put out.

You won't see an overpaid JH fumbling at CB. A speedy but ineffective Mendoza barreling towards goal only to lose the ball due to his own poor touch, Lopez as a MF option, and so on

 

[Kjbert]

I think we are putting A LOT of pressure on some mixture of Lewis, McNamara, Harrison and Ring to make an immediate, meaningful impact.

 

[Schwallacus]

I'd say even without Lampard we are stronger in just about every position to start this year than all the years past. Insert Harrison to start the season, an above average CB pairing, good young acquisitions to fill midfield gaps. I'd say our weakest spot may be RB.
I think it might be the first time PV has had a team with the potential to play the way he wants.

Even with Okoli, USL MVP, he's likely at he very least an average MLS player. Scored some wonder goals in USL and has a great attitude. Can see it in training videos. He wants to play, wants to have fun, wants to win. Don't think this is our final product yet, that'll take another year or two, but it's the closest we've come to the product the FO wants to put out.

You won't see an overpaid JH fumbling at CB. A speedy but ineffective Mendoza barreling towards goal only to lose the ball due to his own poor touch, Lopez as a MF option, and so on

Biggest change is going to be midfield. I think our terrible defense was due to a slower midfield (Pirlo, Lampard, Iraola) not being able to get back if caught too far forward, which we were a lot. Having a younger guy like Ring (who based on his description is a box to box middie) vs. having Iraola and Lamps in midfield will change a lot. Not sure if we are going to have a 4-3-3 or something more like a 4-2-3-1 though. Which do you guys think is better:

TMac or Jack as a 10 with Lewis/ Okoli/ Shelton on the wings. Pirlo and Ring as "Defensive" Mids?
OR
Pirlo, Ring, and someone like Camargo as the three middies with Jack, TMac, Lewis, Shelton all vying for wing-man-ship??

The goals will have to come from more sources since Lampard isn't here, but I would imagine Jack, TMac, Lewis, and Okoli will be able to help ease that burden.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but every team strikes out. Atlanta missed out on Oscar Romero when it looked like all but a done deal.

I know Seattle also missed out on a couple major targets last year which is why they were able to get Lodiero in the summer

Meanwhile, we don't even get mentioned for a guy like Oscar. BUT WE LOCKED DOWN THE FIN!!!!

 

[Kjbert]

Biggest change is going to be midfield. I think our terrible defense was due to a slower midfield (Pirlo, Lampard, Iraola) not being able to get back if caught too far forward, which we were a lot. Having a younger guy like Ring (who based on his description is a box to box middie) vs. having Iraola and Lamps in midfield will change a lot. Not sure if we are going to have a 4-3-3 or something more like a 4-2-3-1 though. Which do you guys think is better:

TMac or Jack as a 10 with Lewis/ Okoli/ Shelton on the wings. Pirlo and Ring as "Defensive" Mids?
OR
Pirlo, Ring, and someone like Camargo as the three middies with Jack, TMac, Lewis, Shelton all vying for wing-man-ship??

The goals will have to come from more sources since Lampard isn't here, but I would imagine Jack, TMac, Lewis, and Okoli will be able to help ease that burden.

You raise an interesting point. Two ways to replace Lampard's production - one is with goals, one is with stopping goals. Certain posters think Lampard hurt us more than he helped us because of our defense. We'll find out.

 

[JGarrettLieb]

Biggest change is going to be midfield. I think our terrible defense was due to a slower midfield (Pirlo, Lampard, Iraola) not being able to get back if caught too far forward, which we were a lot. Having a younger guy like Ring (who based on his description is a box to box middie) vs. having Iraola and Lamps in midfield will change a lot. Not sure if we are going to have a 4-3-3 or something more like a 4-2-3-1 though. Which do you guys think is better:

TMac or Jack as a 10 with Lewis/ Okoli/ Shelton on the wings. Pirlo and Ring as "Defensive" Mids?
OR
Pirlo, Ring, and someone like Camargo as the three middies with Jack, TMac, Lewis, Shelton all vying for wing-man-ship??

The goals will have to come from more sources since Lampard isn't here, but I would imagine Jack, TMac, Lewis, and Okoli will be able to help ease that burden.

As long as we realize that the 2016 season proved that NYCFC, more than any other team in MLS uses tactics as more of a guideline than an Italian style document from god, were good. Don't believe me, look at the heatmaps.

Its clear that Vieria thinks Harrison is a CM, because he said so in an interview.

What else is clear is that the team is dying for another respectable goal scorer. For the last two seasons Villa has gone through distinct cold streaks where he cannot find the back of the net for love or money. What was good, from our perspective as fans, is that in 2016 that cold streak just happened to coincide with Lampard finally becoming healthy and showing us why he is a genuine legend in the sport. By my math, no Lampard means we probably don't make the playoffs in 2016.

What I will comfortably assert as fact is that both Lewis and Okoli will get chances to play on the first team, we need a man who can comfortably knock in 12-14 goals over the course of the season to pair up with el capatain. This assumes we stay healthy, were utterly fucked if Villa gets hurt.

That said, Sean Okoli will be getting starts, and will be getting lots of them, between Okoli (6'1) and Chanot (6'1) we are finally getting some respectably big men in the box. That should help us unlock the more classical style of Pirlo a bit more.

Now can someone who's better at this crap than I am tell me if a 3-4-3 is viable with the guys we have at the back? Or should we remain with some variant of 4 at the back and try not to lead in both goals scored and goals scored against for another year.

 

[Kjbert]

As long as we realize that the 2016 season proved that NYCFC, more than any other team in MLS uses tactics as more of a guideline than an Italian style document from god, were good. Don't believe me, look at the heatmaps.

Now can someone who's better at this crap than I am tell me if a 3-4-3 is viable with the guys we have at the back? Or should we remain with some variant of 4 at the back and try not to lead in both goals scored and goals scored against for another year.

3-4-3 as a starting, defensive formation is doable. You start 3 real CBs, Matarrita moves to LWB, Allen or someone else to a RWB position. Pirlo pairs with a CM (preferably a box to box type and not a Harrison/McNamara CAM type) and you have you 3 up front.

It's totally doable. I would imagine the Ring signing, from PV's quotes, would allow us to partner him with Pirlo in such a formation. But it probably moves Allen into a more important role as a RWB.

Being that Central Midfield is a huge question mark at the moment, it might be our safest formation at the moment.

 

[JGarrettLieb]

3-4-3 as a starting, defensive formation is doable. You start 3 real CBs, Matarrita moves to LWB, Allen or someone else to a RWB position. Pirlo pairs with a CM (preferably a box to box type and not a Harrison/McNamara CAM type) and you have you 3 up front.

It's totally doable. I would imagine the Ring signing, from PV's quotes, would allow us to partner him with Pirlo in such a formation. But it probably moves Allen into a more important role as a RWB.

Being that Central Midfield is a huge question mark at the moment, it might be our safest formation at the moment.

When I mean 3-4-3 I was more thinking

3-2-3-2 for since home field is so narrow.

-----Villa---- Okoli

Tmac - Harrison - ???

---Ring----Pirlo

???--Chanot--???

-------GK------

AKA the live and die by the sword concept. Okoli should be very comfortable with tracking back and running his nuts off in this concept. I'm really trying to learn tactics here, so in depth critiques would be appreciated.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

When I mean 3-4-3 I was more thinking

3-2-3-2 for since home field is so narrow.

-----Villa---- Okoli

Tmac - Harrison - ???

---Ring----Pirlo

???--Chanot--???

-------GK------

AKA the live and die by the sword concept. Okoli should be very comfortable with tracking back and running his nuts off in this concept. I'm really trying to learn tactics here, so in depth critiques would be appreciated.

What I think you would want to do to maximize personnel usage is swap a striker for a midfielder (assuming we do actually sign another midfielder).

3 CBs, 2 WBs, 3 CMs, 1 CAM, 1 Striker. Your WBs would push up in attack, giving you the vaunted 3-3-3-1/334 look that makes my nipples tingle.

And if you have one of your CMs that is significantly more talented in attack than say, ahem, RJ Allen, then you just have RJ tuck into a holding CDM role and hang back to break up counters. If you do that, you could maybe get away with playing Jack as one of the CMs. Or you just let him play WB if he can't win the CAM spot.

 

[sbrylski]

What I think you would want to do to maximize personnel usage is swap a striker for a midfielder (assuming we do actually sign another midfielder).

3 CBs, 2 WBs, 3 CMs, 1 CAM, 1 Striker. Your WBs would push up in attack, giving you the vaunted 3-3-3-1/334 look that makes my nipples tingle.

And if you have one of your CMs that is significantly more talented in attack than say, ahem, RJ Allen, then you just have RJ tuck into a holding CDM role and hang back to break up counters. If you do that, you could maybe get away with playing Jack as one of the CMs. Or you just let him play WB if he can't win the CAM spot.

Like this?

ST: Villa
AM: Harrison
CM: Ring, Pirlo, ???
WB: Matarrita, Allen
CB: Callens, Chanot, Brillant

Seems reasonable, but our roster isn't built for it. Zero depth at CB, literally only have two CMs for three spots that I like enough to start. And tons of attacking mids relegated to the bench: Camargo, Shelton, McNamara, Lewis, Okoli, etc.

I guess you could play Camargo as the third CM, but meh.

I don't think it's in the cards. Definitely think Vieira likes a formation with true wingers and two CBs.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Like this?

ST: Villa
AM: Harrison
CM: Ring, Pirlo, ???
WB: Matarrita, Allen
CB: Callens, Chanot, Brillant

Seems reasonable, but our roster isn't built for it. Zero depth at CB, literally only have two CMs for three spots that I like enough to start. And tons of attacking mids relegated to the bench: Camargo, Shelton, McNamara, Lewis, Okoli, etc.

I guess you could play Camargo as the third CM, but meh.

I don't think it's in the cards. Definitely think Vieira likes a formation with true wingers and two CBs.

Yeah, I would actually go more attacking with one of my CMs.

I just like the idea of playing as many of our good (decent) players as possible at once. That's why I would go ahead and shift Khiry to WB. I think he can be an MLS version of Victor Moses.

(yes, those are two separate thoughts, really, so putting a paragraph in there)

 

[tbagger92]

Yeah, I would actually go more attacking with one of my CMs.

I just like the idea of playing as many of our good (decent) players as possible at once. That's why I would go ahead and shift Khiry to WB. I think he can be an MLS version of Victor Moses.

(yes, those are two separate thoughts, really, so putting a paragraph in there)

I like the Khiry idea.

 

[sbrylski]

Yeah, I would actually go more attacking with one of my CMs.

I just like the idea of playing as many of our good (decent) players as possible at once. That's why I would go ahead and shift Khiry to WB. I think he can be an MLS version of Victor Moses.

(yes, those are two separate thoughts, really, so putting a paragraph in there)

So...

F: Villa (Okoli)
AM: Harrison (McNamara)
CM: Ring, Pirlo, Camargo (McNamara)
WB: Matarrita, Shelton (Allen, Gomez)
CB: Callens, Chanot, Brillant (?)

Slightly better. No natural spot for Jonathan Lewis though.

 

[Ulrich]

So...

F: Villa (Okoli)
AM: Harrison (McNamara)
CM: Ring, Pirlo, Camargo (McNamara)
WB: Matarrita, Shelton (Allen, Gomez)
CB: Callens, Chanot, Brillant (?)

Slightly better. No natural spot for Jonathan Lewis though.

Lewis would be the AM and Harrison a CM instead of Camargo. Harrison was box-2-box in college.

 

[sbrylski]

Lewis would be the AM and Harrison a CM instead of Camargo. Harrison was box-2-box in college.

Fair in this hypothetical, but everything still points to Vieira preferring natural wingers in his formation.

 

[Viewfrom226]

Harrison was box-2-box in college.

Is that because the best players in college play that way, similar to how the best kids tend to play shortstop in baseball even though many move off it as they go pro? Honest question - I'm not sure I've ever watched a college match.

Either way, its hard for me to imagine seeing them use Harrison as a box to box because he is too talented in the final third. I could see him getting time as a central attacking MF behind Villa though.

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

We finally get wingers and everyone wants to put them on the bench

 

[Ulrich]

Is that because the best players in college play that way, similar to how the best kids tend to play shortstop in baseball even though many move off it as they go pro? Honest question - I'm not sure I've ever watched a college match.

Either way, its hard for me to imagine seeing them use Harrison as a box to box because he is too talented in the final third. I could see him getting time as a central attacking MF behind Villa though.

I don't know - probably every team in college plays a bit differently with where they lineup their talent, and Wake Forest is always loaded with good players at every position.

In the midfield as a B2B, Harrison would touch the ball a lot more, and we saw last year that he's one of top 2 dribblers on the team. Also from the advanced midfield position, Lewis is able to stretch the D before cutting back his passes to the trailing CMs. That puts Harrison in position to shoot more than from the wing.

 

[Viewfrom226]

In the midfield as a B2B, Harrison would touch the ball a lot more, and we saw last year that he's one of top 2 dribblers on the team. Also from the advanced midfield position, Lewis is able to stretch the D before cutting back his passes to the trailing CMs. That puts Harrison in position to shoot more than from the wing.

Perhaps. I really don't see it and it doesn't strike me as his highest and best use, but I also never would have guessed that Iraola would be the answer at CDM, so who am I to say? It'll definitely be interesting to see how Vieira fits the pieces together.

Separately, inevitably injuries/suspensions/call-ups "solve" a lot of questions about how to jungle multiple potential starters at the same position.

 

[sbrylski]

Is that because the best players in college play that way, similar to how the best kids tend to play shortstop in baseball even though many move off it as they go pro? Honest question - I'm not sure I've ever watched a college match.

Either way, its hard for me to imagine seeing them use Harrison as a box to box because he is too talented in the final third. I could see him getting time as a central attacking MF behind Villa though.

SS -> 2B -> CF -> 3B -> RF -> LF -> 1B -> DH

Players always move right on that spectrum as they (1) move up a level or (2) age. Almost never left.