2018 Roster Discussion

[mgarbowski]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022157091429961733

I have 2 itches I need to scratch. If 5 people find these amusing that's 5 more than I expect.

First, I was hoping he would turn us down so I could say "Eloi, eloi, why have you forsaken us?" And then I go straight to hell.
Second,

 

[roxfontaine]

How can you tell he doesn't want to be here?

How do you know he doesn't wanna be here?

Not a knock to him at all. I read up on him and he IS Girona. Born and raised there and left once and came back. He had a year left on his contract and even though they told him he'd have a minimal role, he wanted to stay and finish his contract. He absolutely loves Girona and wanted to play 1st division with them. Good read linked below:

https://as.com/futbol/2017/07/07/primera/1499411997_768185.html

 

[Kjbert]

There are 4 main capital investments, apart from the club itself: training ground, academy, USL team, and stadium. They pursued and completed the training ground in reasonable haste. The stadium situation is what it is.
It's the academy and USL team. Your rationale for not having a USL team is we don't have the academy graduates to populate it. I have 2 thoughts in response.
First, do you need a USL team now when you have 1-5 players who have nowhere else to play or later when you have a full roster of players with nowhere else to play? I suggest you need it now, and fill out the roster somehow so these guys don't languish.
Second, I'm still not happy with the decision to slow-walk the academy. I don't think they did it just to save money, but I do think there is a decent chance they did not appreciate the value within MLS of graduating a quality player who came into your academy just 1 year before he moves up: salary cap benefits, sell on GAM, etc. Other new teams did that and have been rewarded. We haven't because -- I think -- CFG thought about the academy equally as a feeder for their entire consortium as something that is primarily meant to help NYCFC, and 17 year-olds who haven't been taught the City way for 4-5 years have little value for them. And NYCFC ended up waiting 3-5 years for the first players to graduate and when they do we have nowhere for them to go.

I appreciate your response. I also disagree with your last two points somewhat.

Your request is that they sign 20 players, pay them a salary, build out a staff and rent facilities just so they have a place for a few guys to get regular games. That's what having a USL side would have entailed the last few years. I don't think the investment is worth the return of giving Sands, Scally, etc. guaranteed games from a business perspective. You're essentially creating a USL side to showcase a couple of youngsters.

Regarding the Academy and then the Homegrown status, remember that MLS just recently revamped the Homegrown rules in the Clubs' favor. NYCFC could not have known 6 years ago that there would be a Jordan Morris rule, that you could have multiple Homegrowns not counting towards your cap or that you could keep all of the transfer fee. Those things happened more than 4 years after the Club was announced.

Should the Club have started an Academy side anyway because it was in the best interest of the Club and community going forward? Yes. But the best reasons to have a strong Academy right now didn't exist when the Club was announced.

 

[Kjbert]

Not a knock to him at all. I read up on him and he IS Girona. Born and raised there and left once and came back. He had a year left on his contract and even though the told him he'd have a minimal role, he wanted to stay and finish his contract. He absolutely loves Girona and wanted to play 1st division with them. Good read linked below:

https://as.com/futbol/2017/07/07/primera/1499411997_768185.html

Andoni Iraola was also Mr. Bilbao

 

[Fantazma]

That is the team’s idea. It’s also a waste of 5+ years of a viable second team to fill spots waiting for a bunch of 14yos to grow up. We’ve had issues the last two years where we had enough injuries to do a deep dive into the bottom of our roster for guys that never get minutes. Would have been nice to have a reserves of players that have recent game experience and they could have been playing with area kids that were older than the original “14s” and not versed in the City Way, but useful and talented in their own right. How many of those kids went to RB instead because we didn’t have a place for them?

so basically you wanted filler players ( non academy kids raised in the city way) i mean sure it be nice to have but i dont know if CFG wanted to be giving out extra contracts to them ( i assume you mean kids that were 17-19 area in age). i really dont know how good the prospects would of been, since the best were probably in college, or were already in the RB system. i mean if we getting brovsky, wingert type level then nah i think its fine how we are. unless you know specific examples of someone we potentially lost out on.

thing is we knew CFG was going to do the city way from year 1 (or year 2 i forgot when academy was actually announced), we can complain about what happened for five years but now we have prospects who need minutes so now it would be good to get something going. though like i mentioned before will be our kids plus any MLS reject or other DII level players.

 

[mgarbowski]

Regarding the Academy and then the Homegrown status, remember that MLS just recently revamped the Homegrown rules in the Clubs' favor. NYCFC could not have known 6 years ago that there would be a Jordan Morris rule, that you could have multiple Homegrowns not counting towards your cap or that you could keep all of the transfer fee. Those things happened more than 4 years after the Club was announced.

Ulrich figured it out no later than shortly after the team's first season.
http://nycfcforums.com/index.php?threads/2016-mls-college-superdraft.3906/page-12#post-117677

I don't think it is asking to much for the club management to have seen it coming sooner than that.

 

[gbservis]

Is there any reason we haven't loaned out Sands, Scally, or Haak to a USL side this year? Do their parents not want them leaving, or is the team just missing a big chance for game time? I'm sure there are numerous USL teams that would be bettered by having Sands, Haak, or Scally.
If they aren't getting playing time, they're going to rot. Hell, send them to Colorado or San Jose for the 2nd half of the year. They're basically USL sides anyway.

Everyone keeps implying that Sands, Haak, or Scally are getting no game time. They all still play with the academy and many of them play in the USMNT system. Didn't they just win some type of trophy in an MLS academy tournament? Maybe it's as simple as the club and the players feel playing those type games and practicing with our first team under our coach staff is a better experience for them than playing on a USL team.

Maybe many here don't rate the game experiences they are getting a valuable but reading through the posts it seems like everyone thinks they just practice and watch our games from the bench while completely ignoring the fact that they are playing.

 

[Ulrich]

so basically you wanted filler players ( non academy kids raised in the city way) i mean sure it be nice to have but i dont know if CFG wanted to be giving out extra contracts to them ( i assume you mean kids that were 17-19 area in age). i really dont know how good the prospects would of been, since the best were probably in college, or were already in the RB system. i mean if we getting brovsky, wingert type level then nah i think its fine how we are. unless you know specific examples of someone we potentially lost out on.

thing is we knew CFG was going to do the city way from year 1 (or year 2 i forgot when academy was actually announced), we can complain about what happened for five years but now we have prospects who need minutes so now it would be good to get something going. though like i mentioned before will be our kids plus any MLS reject or other DII level players.

You look at any of the best teams in the world and they poach players from other academies and clubs that *ARE NOT* developed in their club’s specific tactics. Call them whatever you want, a filler, a new prospect, an ace in the hole, but this is not a novel concept - to ignore talented players just because they haven’t spent 4-5 years in your system is foolhardy and ignorant.

 

[NickA]

Question moving forward is - who is that European Star?

I think they could also do it with an American star but there is only one of those right now and he's playing for Dortmund.

One DP has to be a name. One can be all quality. One can be a talented young hopeful. The rest of the squad is up to proper scouting, academy development and team friendly contracts. Our play is good, but some competition is subpar. We most likely aren't going to grow our base with this play. We sure the hell ain't going to grow it in a baseball stadium. I know nobody wants to hear it, but we need a name. Not that Villa isn't a name but someone still current on a big team. I'm not saying old like Pirlo or fragile like Lampard...but it's NYC. We may not like it, but that's what builds the team, the brand, the money, the TV. We are only a few years old. I guess we will rely on winning though, which I'm ok with.

 

[Fantazma]

You look at any of the best teams in the world and they poach players from other academies and clubs that *ARE NOT* developed in their club’s specific tactics. Call them whatever you want, a filler, a new prospect, an ace in the hole, but this is not a novel concept - to ignore talented players just because they haven’t spent 4-5 years in your system is foolhardy and ignorant.

definitely but no way in hell were we gonna poach someone from RB back then, when they have had a good academy for a while and we were just starting we had no pull. it looks like CFG wanted it their way and whats what they did, maybe they felt they it was not worth trying to teach new concepts to a 18/19 yr old so they wanted to start younger at 14. (i actually think we did poach someone that was 15 or so but that was more recent) right or wrong its how they went about it.

right now the issue is to find out what to do about the kids we do have that are prospects ( scally, sands, and anyone else we may try to sign) be it USL team or loans

 

[mgarbowski]

One DP has to be a name. One can be all quality. One can be a talented young hopeful. The rest of the squad is up to proper scouting, academy development and team friendly contracts. Our play is good, but some competition is subpar. We most likely aren't going to grow our base with this play. We sure the hell ain't going to grow it in a baseball stadium. I know nobody wants to hear it, but we need a name. Not that Villa isn't a name but someone still current on a big team. I'm not saying old like Pirlo or fragile like Lampard...but it's NYC. We may not like it, but that's what builds the team, the brand, the money, the TV. We are only a few years old. I guess we will rely on winning though, which I'm ok with.

It annoys me to no end that you and K Kjbert are right about this, but you're right. There's a substantial part of this city's potential MLS market who will only be bedazzled by someone who made a name in Europe.

 

[Ulrich]

definitely but no way in hell were we gonna poach someone from RB back then, when they have had a good academy for a while and we were just starting we had no pull. it looks like CFG wanted it their way and whats what they did, maybe they felt they it was not worth trying to teach new concepts to a 18/19 yr old so they wanted to start younger at 14. (i actually think we did poach someone that was 15 or so but that was more recent) right or wrong its how they went about it.

right now the issue is to find out what to do about the kids we do have that are prospects ( scally, sands, and anyone else we may try to sign) be it USL team or loans

CFG poaches players for MCFC all the time, so their Puritan stance for NYCFC is hypocritical.

 

[mgarbowski]

Not a knock to him at all. I read up on him and he IS Girona. Born and raised there and left once and came back. He had a year left on his contract and even though they told him he'd have a minimal role, he wanted to stay and finish his contract. He absolutely loves Girona and wanted to play 1st division with them. Good read linked below:

https://as.com/futbol/2017/07/07/primera/1499411997_768185.html

Makes me feel a bit better about why he played 14 minutes last year.

 

[Schwallacus]

Everyone keeps implying that Sands, Haak, or Scally are getting no game time. They all still play with the academy and many of them play in the USMNT system. Didn't they just win some type of trophy in an MLS academy tournament? Maybe it's as simple as the club and the players feel playing those type games and practicing with our first team under our coach staff is a better experience for them than playing on a USL team.

Maybe many here don't rate the game experiences they are getting a valuable but reading through the posts it seems like everyone thinks they just practice and watch our games from the bench while completely ignoring the fact that they are playing.

True, they are playing. I don't mean to say that they are just sitting there with thumbs up their asses.

However, I want to see them get experience against men. Grown ass men who can push them off the ball and make them work. Kids their own age or even a year or two older aren't going to fully test them and see what they're actually made of. I feel like their development itself isn't being fully tapped serving them up against competition they've shown they can beat or handle with relative ease. I don't care about the academy winning, I care about our academy developing to its fullest potential.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Makes me feel a bit better about why he played 14 minutes last year.

Looking at this more closely, I think the reason he didn't get more minutes last season is that it was Girona's (and his) first in the top division. He played a lot the year before and helped them gain promotion, but that also promoted him out of a job. Much like Ofori with Stuttgart.

When you see a 33-year-old get fewer minutes, it is logical to assume that he has lost a step and is less valuable. Maybe. But, I am hoping this is because he was asked to punch above his weight. His ceiling might be solid guy in a second division below a top 5 league. That's worked out well for us in the past.

 

[Ulrich]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022177915784572928

Not sure how Herrera qualifies for a UK work permit, but ok.

 

[JayH]

It annoys me to no end that you and K Kjbert are right about this, but you're right. There's a substantial part of this city's potential MLS market who will only be bedazzled by someone who made a name in Europe.

Yes, it's probably the sad reality that Rooney would be a better signing in that respect than Almiron or Darwin. The Pirlo and Lamps lovers didn't seem to mind that they sucked. Unfortunately Villa is the white unicorn from whom you get the upside across the board.

 

[Fantazma]

CFG poaches players for MCFC all the time, so their Puritan stance for NYCFC is hypocritical.

yes, though not sure if MLS rules have something to do with it ( i legit dont know how homegrown and academy rules work)

 

[EganSoccerWords]

I appreciate your response. I also disagree with your last two points somewhat.

Your request is that they sign 20 players, pay them a salary, build out a staff and rent facilities just so they have a place for a few guys to get regular games. That's what having a USL side would have entailed the last few years. I don't think the investment is worth the return of giving Sands, Scally, etc. guaranteed games from a business perspective. You're essentially creating a USL side to showcase a couple of youngsters.

Regarding the Academy and then the Homegrown status, remember that MLS just recently revamped the Homegrown rules in the Clubs' favor. NYCFC could not have known 6 years ago that there would be a Jordan Morris rule, that you could have multiple Homegrowns not counting towards your cap or that you could keep all of the transfer fee. Those things happened more than 4 years after the Club was announced.

Should the Club have started an Academy side anyway because it was in the best interest of the Club and community going forward? Yes. But the best reasons to have a strong Academy right now didn't exist when the Club was announced.

What's the real cost of a USL squad? Hybrid affiliation would mean that NYCFC would only be responsible for technical staff and players. Team would train at our training facility. Some of the roster would be on MLS contracts. The typical USL player makes 2k-3k a month and only during the season. Add technical staff and you are looking at about 500k a season. Have the team play in Suffolk County and you get to expand our brand as well with someone else paying the marketing dollars.

 

[Seven]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022177915784572928

Not sure how Herrera qualifies for a UK work permit, but ok.

I have the same question about him that I did about Jack, is he good enough? His passing would need to improve