Away - Orlando 08/28

[Ulrich]

That doesn't support anything. Orlando arguably has the worst defense in MLS. They need major personnel changes next season. Their attacking four players are fine. It's the defense and the lack of a midfield link to the attacking four that really screws them.

You didn't just say there's a lack of a midfield link on a team that has Kaka, Molino, and Perez Garcia, did you ?!?! I despise the guy, but you can add Shea to that list too as he's quite competent as a midfielder/wing at making marauding runs from deep and serving in the ball. Their defense may not be great, but to claim they don't have a midfield link is a horrible Straw Man to put forth.

Orlando was undefeated at home before Kreis took over - they now have two straight losses at home.

 

[mgarbowski]

You didn't just say there's a lack of a midfield link on a team that has Kaka, Molino, and Perez Garcia, did you ?!?! I despise the guy, but you can add Shea to that list too as he's quite competent as a midfielder/wing at making marauding runs from deep and serving in the ball. Their defense may not be great, but to claim they don't have a midfield link is a horrible Straw Man to put forth.

Orlando was undefeated at home before Kreis took over - they now have two straight losses at home.

Not a straw man when Kaka, Molino and P-G have played 1 game together.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

You didn't just say there's a lack of a midfield link on a team that has Kaka, Molino, and Perez Garcia, did you ?!?! I despise the guy, but you can add Shea to that list too as he's quite competent as a midfielder/wing at making marauding runs from deep and serving in the ball. Their defense may not be great, but to claim they don't have a midfield link is a horrible Straw Man to put forth.

Orlando was undefeated at home before Kreis took over - they now have two straight losses at home.

 

[Kjbert]

No, left winger.

And no, I don't kid.

Seriously? Wow.

I don't know where to find these things. Does anyone have a heat map of where Kreis has played guys (or their positioning on the field or whatever) since he has taken over?

In fairness, Thierry Henry played as a LW his last year with NJRB. He really didn't do much but stand at midfield and cross balls into BWP.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

whoscored match center

 

[Ulrich]

Not a straw man when Kaka, Molino and P-G have played 1 game together.

Not having a player on the roster and not playing together are two different things. Yes, still a straw man.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

Not having a player on the roster and not playing together are two different things. Yes, still a straw man.

You either don't know what a midfield link is or what a strawman is because you are doing a great job misrepresenting my arguement right now.

 

[mgarbowski]

Not having a player on the roster and not playing together are two different things. Yes, still a straw man.

I'm sorry. Did I misread when I thought you used a 1-2-2 record as evidence? It seemed to me you brought that up, DV countered by mentioning a weak midfield, and you called that a straw man.

I really don't care how Kreis does in Orlando, except this weekend, and another 2-3 times a year going forward. But I know logic and argument and can see when people play fast.

 

[itsaNYthin9]

Hope we get a win this weekend.

I am actually thinking about how our record of 1-2-2 against Orlando City could have EASILY been 3-0-1 if we only had the discipline in the last minute of stoppage time. Gave up an equalizer on a Kaka free kick in our first game and then that damn Molino header in our last game

 

[FootyLovin]

Hope we get a win this weekend.

I am actually thinking about how our record of 1-2-2 against Orlando City could have EASILY been 3-0-1 if we only had the discipline in the last minute of stoppage time. Gave up an equalizer on a Kaka free kick in our first game and then that damn Molino header in our last game

Math is off. That would make us 2-1-2. Not 3-0-1.

 

[gbservis]

Seriously? Wow.

I don't know where to find these things. Does anyone have a heat map of where Kreis has played guys (or their positioning on the field or whatever) since he has taken over?

In fairness, Thierry Henry played as a LW his last year with NJRB. He really didn't do much but stand at midfield and cross balls into BWP.

From Whoscored Orlando on the left vs Toronto on the right:





Orlando attacked heavily up the left side. Kaka #10 is way out wide. Even more interesting is how far up field #14 Boden the left back was playing. His average positioning is past the center line, Harrison is going to have a field day if they do that against us. The Kries system appears to be fully in place, high d line and attacking fullbacks. It will be interesting if PV has us fight them for possession or if we let them have it an counter against the high line.

Link: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1043925/MatchReport

 

[Ulrich]

You either don't know what a midfield link is or what a strawman is because you are doing a great job misrepresenting my arguement right now.

You're a piece of work - sometimes I don't know why I even bother responding to your posts, but it's probably because I can't stand the way you deflect points being made and then get angry claiming people twist your argument when you're the one twisting the original.

So for starters, the definition of a straw man is:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

This started because you refuted my statement that Kreis' record was showing he isn't yet capable of getting the most out of his star players:

Kaka, Molino and Mattias Perez Garcia are actually three very good midfielders for MLS. I am counting on Kreis not being able to figure out how to play them together effectively just like he wasn't able to figure out how to have Lampard, Pirlo and Mix be effective for us last year.

His current record supports your wish.... 1-2-2 surely isn't anything to crow about.

That doesn't support anything. Orlando arguably has the worst defense in MLS. They need major personnel changes next season. Their attacking four players are fine. It's the defense and the lack of a midfield link to the attacking four that really screws them.

Sabo & I were talking about not getting the most out of Kaka, Molino and Mattias Perez Garcia and you refuted it by talking about their defense and lack of a Midfield link. That's a Straw Man.

With reference to a Midfield Link, that refers to any and/or all of the Midfield players - the Midfield by definition links the defense and the attack. Teams play out of the back through different players/positions - some go through the middle (Recent ManU via Carrick) and others through the wing (Old ManU via Beckham/Giggs), and some straight to the creative (neither defensive nor advanced) midfielder (Valderrama / Etcheverry). Orlando has players at these positions that fit the bill. If you specifically meant a Holding/defensive midfielder, then say that and don't be obtuse. As it stands, Kaka drops and receives a large amount of the link play - if that's not working, then that's on the coach.

With reference to the Defense being horrendous, OCFC has given up 43 goals/25 games compared to NYCFC giving up 43 goals/26 games. While not great, it's not the worst in the league. The difference is that their offense has only scored 39 goals (6th in the East). They are tied for 6th in the East on GD. So yes, they could use some changes on Defense, but again, that was not the point of the original posts by Sabo & me.

I'm sorry. Did I misread when I thought you used a 1-2-2 record as evidence? It seemed to me you brought that up, DV countered by mentioning a weak midfield, and you called that a straw man.

I really don't care how Kreis does in Orlando, except this weekend, and another 2-3 times a year going forward. But I know logic and argument and can see when people play fast.

Yes you misread. When the three players being discussed as being quality players and are all playing midfield, along with Nocerino, then yes its a straw man to claim there isn't a midfield link on the team.

So no, that's not playing fast as you characterized it, that's staying on topic as logic dictates.

 

[canchon]

In fairness, Thierry Henry played as a LW his last year with NJRB. He really didn't do much but stand at midfield and cross balls into BWP.

And then Henry would hang his head and say "yes, BWP has 20+ goals but he should have 35-40". Man he was great to watch (in all aspects of the game).

 

[itsaNYthin9]

Math is off. That would make us 2-1-2. Not 3-0-1.

My mistake. Our only two draws against them should have been wins if it were not for last minute goofs so 3-0-2.

Also, I feel like our GD is so shot because of that 7-0 loss against NJRB. Even a normal looking loss like 3-0 would have had our GD somewhat more respectable.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

You're a piece of work - sometimes I don't know why I even bother responding to your posts, but it's probably because I can't stand the way you deflect points being made and then get angry claiming people twist your argument when you're the one twisting the original.

So for starters, the definition of a straw man is:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

This started because you refuted my statement that Kreis' record was showing he isn't yet capable of getting the most out of his star players:



Sabo & I were talking about not getting the most out of Kaka, Molino and Mattias Perez Garcia and you refuted it by talking about their defense and lack of a Midfield link. That's a Straw Man.

With reference to a Midfield Link, that refers to any and/or all of the Midfield players - the Midfield by definition links the defense and the attack. Teams play out of the back through different players/positions - some go through the middle (Recent ManU via Carrick) and others through the wing (Old ManU via Beckham/Giggs), and some straight to the creative (neither defensive nor advanced) midfielder (Valderrama / Etcheverry). Orlando has players at these positions that fit the bill. If you specifically meant a Holding/defensive midfielder, then say that and don't be obtuse. As it stands, Kaka drops and receives a large amount of the link play - if that's not working, then that's on the coach.

With reference to the Defense being horrendous, OCFC has given up 43 goals/25 games compared to NYCFC giving up 43 goals/26 games. While not great, it's not the worst in the league. The difference is that their offense has only scored 39 goals (6th in the East). They are tied for 6th in the East on GD. So yes, they could use some changes on Defense, but again, that was not the point of the original posts by Sabo & me.


Yes you misread. When the three players being discussed as being quality players and are all playing midfield, along with Nocerino, then yes its a straw man to claim there isn't a midfield link on the team.

So no, that's not playing fast as you characterized it, that's staying on topic as logic dictates.

Feel free not to.

 

[Gotham Gator]

Seriously? Wow.

I don't know where to find these things. Does anyone have a heat map of where Kreis has played guys (or their positioning on the field or whatever) since he has taken over?

In fairness, Thierry Henry played as a LW his last year with NJRB. He really didn't do much but stand at midfield and cross balls into BWP.

I just go to the MLS summary page for the match and click "lineup". You can even just do it via the iOS app. Kaka has been on the left in a 4-2-3-1 for the last couple games at least, although I don't claim to have checked them all.

 

[Viewfrom226]

From Whoscored Orlando on the left vs Toronto on the right:

View attachment 5647

View attachment 5648

Orlando attacked heavily up the left side. Kaka #10 is way out wide. Even more interesting is how far up field #14 Boden the left back was playing. His average positioning is past the center line, Harrison is going to have a field day if they do that against us. The Kries system appears to be fully in place, high d line and attacking fullbacks. It will be interesting if PV has us fight them for possession or if we let them have it an counter against the high line.

Link: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1043925/MatchReport

Good info. They really were so heavily leftsided. So much of it was just giving Kaka the ball on the left sideline about 20-22 yards from the end line and trying to let him create. For most of the first half, Boden seemed to be providing very little support. It seemed like he finally started to push up in the second half, and did create their goal on a cross to Larin.

They struggled with the high line against both Toronto and Seattle (better against RSL). Plus, Hines went out hurt late in the match. Haven't looked at what his status is.

I think it is always a bit ambitious to expect three points on the road, but we should have a good chance in this one assuming we don't get killed by Larin.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Good info. They really were so heavily leftsided. So much of it was just giving Kaka the ball on the left sideline about 20-22 yards from the end line and trying to let him create. For most of the first half, Boden seemed to be providing very little support. It seemed like he finally started to push up in the second half, and did create their goal on a cross to Larin.

They struggled with the high line against both Toronto and Seattle (better against RSL). Plus, Hines went out hurt late in the match. Haven't looked at what his status is.

I think it is always a bit ambitious to expect three points on the road, but we should have a good chance in this one assuming we don't get killed by Larin.

Dont underestimate Saunders' ability to gift one to anyone at any time.

 

[LionNYC]

Things to note:

We've never played Orlando with Harrison in the lineup
We've never played Orlando with Lampard fit
We've never played Orlando with Chanot

I'm confident except for fucking Saunders in goal

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Things to note:

We've never played Orlando with Harrison in the lineup
We've never played Orlando with Lampard fit
We've never played Orlando with Chanot

I'm confident except for fucking Saunders in goal

Your last line is sml. Story of my life.