2018 Roster Discussion

[SoupInNYC]

I would take Sweat over a $100K Mata. He’s giving amazing return and value on his contract.

There’s just so much wasted money on this roster.... I realize a lot had to be done to make up for Kreis and right the proverbial ship, so money was thrown around a bit, but Mata, Wallace, TMac (and that 6min defender that is on IR) are all making obscene amounts for their production, and then throw in Amagat’s fleecing contract and one has to question our FO, Cap Guru, and scouts.

I wouldn't throw Hountondji into this. Yes I understand it if you compare to production, but I'm not going to get on the FO in terms of what happened in that particular situation.

But all the others, yes. Agreed from a contract/cap standpoint.

I think the only part the scouts come into play (for this group of players) is Amagat, though I think we all have the impression that he wasn't necessarily scouted. Hountondji never had the chance to display if he had an quality (due to injury and then Ibeagha's solid play, and then injury again). The others have been here for too long and came on board in a previous cap situation.

 

[gbservis]

I wouldn't throw Hountondji into this. Yes I understand it if you compare to production, but I'm not going to get on the FO in terms of what happened in that particular situation.

But all the others, yes. Agreed from a contract/cap standpoint.

I think the only part the scouts come into play (for this group of players) is Amagat, though I think we all have the impression that he wasn't necessarily scouted. Hountondji never had the chance to display if he had an quality (due to injury and then Ibeagha's solid play, and then injury again). The others have been here for too long and came on board in a previous cap situation.

You can't get on them for him getting hurt but it was still a big miss, Ibeagha had him beat by the 2nd week of training camp. He rotted on the bench with his giant salary for a solid chunk of the season before getting hurt. It's a stretch to say that his salary is reasonable as a 3rd CB, deeper than that which he was well before the injury is a disaster at his salary and an international spot.

I would take Sweat over a $100K Mata. He’s giving amazing return and value on his contract.

There’s just so much wasted money on this roster.... I realize a lot had to be done to make up for Kreis and right the proverbial ship, so money was thrown around a bit, but Mata, Wallace, TMac (and that 6min defender that is on IR) are all making obscene amounts for their production, and then throw in Amagat’s fleecing contract and one has to question our FO, Cap Guru, and scouts.

The big question is how big of a raise will Sweat get, TMac jumped from Sweat type money to 185k and then 200k. Sweat's role on the team this season is much larger than TMac's was the year of his raise. Add in a run out with the USMNT, which matters in this league and I'm betting Sweat's new deal is north of $200K.

 

[SoupInNYC]

You can't get on them for him getting hurt but it was still a big miss, Ibeagha had him beat by the 2nd week of training camp. He rotted on the bench with his giant salary for a solid chunk of the season before getting hurt. It's a stretch to say that his salary is reasonable as a 3rd CB, deeper than that which he was well before the injury is a disaster at his salary and an international spot.

Did Ibeagha have him beat in training camp? I didn't think that was the case. I thought Hountondji was injured, which resulted in Ibeagha getting minutes (especially after Chanot's early red card) and Ibeagha just impressed there on out so Hountondji didn't quite have the opportunities for minutes, until the USOC when he got injured right away.

And his salary isn't that monstrous. Maybe in 2015 or 2016, but not these days.

Either way, I'm comfortable with chalking up the waste of salary on Hountondji as a "shit happens" kind of thing. And mostly because Ibeagha has completely outperformed expectations. If we knew we were getting this out of Ibeagha when he was signed, then we definitely should not have signed Cedric. But I don't think we knew that.

 

[Ulrich]

Did Ibeagha have him beat in training camp? I didn't think that was the case. I thought Hountondji was injured, which resulted in Ibeagha getting minutes (especially after Chanot's early red card) and Ibeagha just impressed there on out so Hountondji didn't quite have the opportunities for minutes, until the USOC when he got injured right away.

And his salary isn't that monstrous. Maybe in 2015 or 2016, but not these days.

Either way, I'm comfortable with chalking up the waste of salary on Hountondji as a "shit happens" kind of thing. And mostly because Ibeagha has completely outperformed expectations. If we knew we were getting this out of Ibeagha when he was signed, then we definitely should not have signed Cedric. But I don't think we knew that.

I won’t claim to know the pecking order for certain, but I think he had him beaten once the season started. And I don’t begrudge the injury, just that I couldn’t remember his name and the injury helped tag him. And Ibeagha was the top USL Defender so the team had to have an idea of ability - that's compared to random second division team(?) that Hout came from, so a wash with apples to apples(?)

 

[SoupInNYC]

I won’t claim to know the pecking order for certain, but I think he had him beaten once the season started. And I don’t begrudge the injury, just that I couldn’t remember his name and the injury helped tag him. And Ibeagha was the top USL Defender so the team had to have an idea of ability - that's compared to random second division team(?) that Hout came from, so a wash with apples to apples(?)

Well he was injured during the first preseason game and got no more minutes there. Didn't make the 18 against SKC and that's where Chanot got the red, which led to Ibeagha starting the game against LAG, since Hountondji wasn't fit (he made the 18 against LAG).

And Okoli was the USL MVP, so I'm not certain the fact that Ibeagha was reigning USL defender of the year was something we could count on him being a solid contributor at the CB position (and probably a reason they went out and got another CB).

 

[ZYanksRule]

There are some very, very, very bad contracts on this team. It's scary to think how much better our roster would be if we weren't being mismanaged so badly.

 

[adam]

There are some very, very, very bad contracts on this team. It's scary to think how much better our roster would be if we weren't being mismanaged so badly.

What’s crazy is we completely overhauled the roster over the last 2 years. Only Tummy and Villa are left from year 1. And Mata and Chanot are the only players left from year 2. But we keep giving raises to players who then get benched for new players coming in. Higher salary for a lesser role. It makes zero sense.

 

[Ulrich]

Well he was injured during the first preseason game and got no more minutes there. Didn't make the 18 against SKC and that's where Chanot got the red, which led to Ibeagha starting the game against LAG, since Hountondji wasn't fit (he made the 18 against LAG).

And Okoli was the USL MVP, so I'm not certain the fact that Ibeagha was reigning USL defender of the year was something we could count on him being a solid contributor at the CB position (and probably a reason they went out and got another CB).

USL Defender of the Year is not a certainty as a marker to succeed, but it’s a place to start looking, especially as a 3rd CB (or forward with USL PoY).

Aaron Long was the 2016 recipient and he’s done well for himself. Granted, I think he was an academy product, but he still earned the moniker.

Okoli just didn’t fit our system with three forwards and being stuck out wide so often - he got something like 22 goal for FCCincy in 2016 so he wasn’t a bad flier to take.

In 2016, Christian Ramirez was the NASL scoring champ and he’s also done well since.

 

[ZYanksRule]

What’s crazy is we completely overhauled the roster over the last 2 years. Only Tummy and Villa are left from year 1. And Mata and Chanot are the only players left from year 2. But we keep giving raises to players who then get benched for new players coming in. Higher salary for a lesser role. It makes zero sense.

I'm starting to think Claudio Reyna isn't a very good Sporting Director.

This club makes far too many mistakes in his domain.

 

[Shwafta]

So, those guys were signed in 2018. I cannot provide a year over year comparison for them.

oh, that makes sense. I thought it was that the players received raises recently, and that the YoY was some weird fiscal oddity like "October to October" or something, so they'd also be included.

 

[Seth]

A lot of folks have been grumbling about how crazy the FO has been with the salaries they're paying and then getting new guys so the guys who're already here just end up sitting on the bench. And the next step in that is saying management is nuts and we should get rid of them all. But think about it for a second in relation to how Man City pays and uses players. Ignoring the fact the Man City salaries have an additional three zeros on the end of them, they'll spend any amount of money on a player they think they need and leave literally millions of dollars a week in salary sitting on the bench in Manchester because it just doesn't matter. They see a player, they spend the money, it's not a problem. It's the City way, and it's the CFG way. But take away those three zeros and it seems like we're doing basically the same thing (albeit with three zero's less quality, but that's a different discussion).

Some are saying we just get players and spend money foolishly, I say maybe we're doing things in exactly the CFG style.

 

[adam]

A lot of folks have been grumbling about how crazy the FO has been with the salaries they're paying and then getting new guys so the guys who're already here just end up sitting on the bench. And the next step in that is saying management is nuts and we should get rid of them all. But think about it for a second in relation to how Man City pays and uses players. Ignoring the fact the Man City salaries have an additional three zeros on the end of them, they'll spend any amount of money on a player they think they need and leave literally millions of dollars a week in salary sitting on the bench in Manchester because it just doesn't matter. They see a player, they spend the money, it's not a problem. It's the City way, and it's the CFG way. But take away those three zeros and it seems like we're doing basically the same thing (albeit with three zero's less quality, but that's a different discussion).

Some are saying we just get and spend money foolishly, I say maybe we're doing things in exactly the CFG style.

Good point. Too bad the Shitty Way doesn’t work in a salary capped league.

 

[canchon]

Earlier this year everyone wanted to pat Reyna on the back when NYCFC got off to a hot start. Isi, Tinnerholm, and Medina all looked like solid buys and in general the narrative was “hit on all the transfers except for Berget.”

Either those players all massively outperformed early in the season or something else changed. What could that be?

 

[Ulrich]

Earlier this year everyone wanted to pat Reyna on the back when NYCFC got off to a hot start. Isi, Tinnerholm, and Medina all looked like solid buys and in general the narrative was “hit on all the transfers except for Berget.”

Either those players all massively outperformed early in the season or something else changed. What could that be?

I for one was never on the Medina bandwagon, so Reyna got no pat on the back for him.

That said, Reyna has hit on some good players this year. But that’s making up for some howlers in the past and some ridiculous contract raises that have tied up lots of money each year. Saunders, RJ, TMac, Wallace, Mata, Amagat. First season, there was Wingert and Grabavoy both making a bucketload, and while they were Kreis’ guys, Kreis wasn’t in charge of the cap. We had four GKs on the team this year. We traded lots of G/Tam for draft positions to take Lewis and Awuah, and they’ve been buried below the 18.

Reyna has hit on some players and he’s made some massively boneheaded decisions.

That said..... Dome broke the good players we had this year.

 

[adam]

I for one was never on the Medina bandwagon, so Reyna got no pat on the back for him.

That said, Reyna has hit on some good players this year. But that’s making up for some howlers in the past and some ridiculous contract raises that have tied up lots of money each year. Saunders, RJ, TMac, Wallace, Mata, Amagat. First season, there was Wingert and Grabavoy both making a bucketload, and while they were Kreis’ guys, Kreis wasn’t in charge of the cap. We had four GKs on the team this year. We traded lots of G/Tam for draft positions to take Lewis and Awuah, and they’ve been buried below the 18.

Reyna has hit on some players and he’s made some massively boneheaded decisions.

That said..... Dome broke the good players we had this year.

Well said. Instead of giving the RJs, Sweats and Saunders of the world raises and extensions, we should be trading them while they are on their original cap friendly contracts. You know why the Patriots are so good every year? They know when to part with and when to pay their players. Reyna does not. Moreover, he couldn’t get any GAM in return for his son signing in Europe. Now that carrot is gone. I’m so done with him, there’s no forward thinking in our team building and cap situation.

 

[Ulrich]

Well said. Instead of giving the RJs, Sweats and Saunders of the world raises and extensions, we should be trading them while they are on their original cap friendly contracts. You know why the Patriots are so good every year? They know when to part with and when to pay their players. Reyna does not. Moreover, he couldn’t get any GAM in return for his son signing in Europe. Now that carrot is gone. I’m so done with him, there’s no forward thinking in our team building and cap situation.

Agree with all of that, but I wouldn’t lop sweat in there. He’s so massively out-performed his contract two years running that even as a backup LB/CB that could start open cup matches, he’d be worth the small raise I expect him to get ($125-150k)

 

[Fake Jew]

Finding good qualities of bench players on middling teams and maximizing those qualities in an expanding role has become the Reyna special. No, he's not perfect but he is great at that.

 

[Sabo]

Well said. Instead of giving the RJs, Sweats and Saunders of the world raises and extensions, we should be trading them while they are on their original cap friendly contracts. You know why the Patriots are so good every year? They know when to part with and when to pay their players. Reyna does not. Moreover, he couldn’t get any GAM in return for his son signing in Europe. Now that carrot is gone. I’m so done with him, there’s no forward thinking in our team building and cap situation.

The business side of soccer isn't about buying low and making lateral transfers, its about buying low and selling high. I think FO has done a good job on that front -- from the Poku and Mullins level to Jack. I wouldn't be surprised if Medina to Nice is a done deal after hearing rumblings PV wants him. The Ring/Callens signings are the backbone of our team, but also lay the groundwork to make sure any transfers aren't free.

I shouldn't give Claudio a pass on Gio, but I do any way.

 

[Ulrich]

The business side of soccer isn't about buying low and making lateral transfers, its about buying low and selling high. I think FO has done a good job on that front -- from the Poku and Mullins level to Jack. I wouldn't be surprised if Medina to Nice is a done deal after hearing rumblings PV wants him. The Ring/Callens signings are the backbone of our team, but also lay the groundwork to make sure any transfers aren't free.

I shouldn't give Claudio a pass on Gio, but I do any way.

I agree the poku/Mullins trades worked out well, but those were forced more by the players wanting starting roles and not having them here, rather than a savy GM knowing when a starting player’s stock has peaked and offloads them before they get marginalized. TMac was the perfect example of a guy that was starting and playing really well but had hit his ceiling personally and comparatively to MLS standards - Reyna missed the window on that in a massive way and he’s now untradable.

This offseason, the club should look to get rid of a few foreign NT players that while good for us also hurt us with their absences - make some profit off their 1-2 years. I’d start with Isi - love him and he’s grown his value but in doing so is now getting called all the time for NT duty. I’d offload Medina - not a NT player but if PV wants him, make a profit and open a DP spot. Don’t pick up Ofori’s contract - no GAM but removes the specter of losing him to country. Offload Mata (if that’s even possible) and that obscene contract. That’s three NT players and one DP.

And the Gio fiasco has me hoping the pending solidarity cases rule in favor of the youth teams. That’s the only way we’ll be made whole from his training.

 

[adam]

I agree the poku/Mullins trades worked out well, but those were forced more by the players wanting starting roles and not having them here, rather than a savy GM knowing when a starting player’s stock has peaked and offloads them before they get marginalized. TMac was the perfect example of a guy that was starting and playing really well but had hit his ceiling personally and comparatively to MLS standards - Reyna missed the window on that in a massive way and he’s now untradable.

This offseason, the club should look to get rid of a few foreign NT players that while good for us also hurt us with their absences - make some profit off their 1-2 years. I’d start with Isi - love him and he’s grown his value but in doing so is now getting called all the time for NT duty. I’d offload Medina - not a NT player but if PV wants him, make a profit and open a DP spot. Don’t pick up Ofori’s contract - no GAM but removes the specter of losing him to country. Offload Mata (if that’s even possible) and that obscene contract. That’s three NT players and one DP.

And the Gio fiasco has me hoping the pending solidarity cases rule in favor of the youth teams. That’s the only way we’ll be made whole from his training.

Remember when we could have gotten a (relatively) large transfer fee for Mata? Reyna has an amazing instinct for missing the boat.

ETA and don’t forget Jack forced his hand to move as well. Any transfer fee this team has seen has been the result of the player wanting out, not the club looking to get value while the player is peaking. Love the moves you suggested.