2018 Roster Discussion

[Sabo]

Remember when we could have gotten a (relatively) large transfer fee for Mata? Reyna has an amazing instinct for missing the boat.

ETA and don’t forget Jack forced his hand to move as well. Any transfer fee this team has seen has been the result of the player wanting out, not the club looking to get value while the player is peaking. Love the moves you suggested.

I was advocating to transfer Mata (who had locked down a starting spot for CR) after the World Cup when his value was maximized -- even though it didn't work out because of injuries I still think waiting was the smart play given what everyone knew at the time.

Amen to Ulrich on the youth team training point. US Soccer's position is total BS.

 

[Gotham Gator]

There is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here.

 

[mgarbowski]

There is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here.

Agreed. Reyna has hits and misses, but some supposed misses take a lot of hindsight. Take Mata: the only chance to sell him would have been during the 2016-17 offseason, and I don't think anybody (and certainly not many) was asking for that back then. Then he was hurt early in 2017 and like Sabo said, the best play was to let him go to the WC. But he was hurt again. And his existing injury history was the reason we had to hope the WC would boost his value. If we rushed to sell after he recovered from the 2017 injury any half-witted potential buyer would have been wary.

As for the salary figures, I would need to see a comparison of our roster to at least 4-5 other teams to see how the money is allocated. Everyone has pretty much the same pool for most of it outside of DPs. Unless the rest of MLS is leaving salary money unspent I bet most every team has multiple players whose salary would inspire head scratches. Senior domestic players, which we have fewer of than most teams, seem to end up with outsized salaries just due to seniority and yearly raises.
Finally, with someone like TMac you have to balance on-field value with history, loyalty, fan-love, etc. Most fans are not so cold as many of us here. Selling Tommy to get what, a few hundred grand in GAM/TAM and/or a draft pick would not have been a popular move.

 

[gbservis]

Agreed. Reyna has hits and misses, but some supposed misses take a lot of hindsight. Take Mata: the only chance to sell him would have been during the 2016-17 offseason, and I don't think anybody (and certainly not many) was asking for that back then. Then he was hurt early in 2017 and like Sabo said, the best play was to let him go to the WC. But he was hurt again. And his existing injury history was the reason we had to hope the WC would boost his value. If we rushed to sell after he recovered from the 2017 injury any half-witted potential buyer would have been wary.

The other piece of information being ignored was the sell on clause Mata's original team held on his orginal deal that would have significantly cut into any transfer profits should he have been sold during that time.

 

[sbrylski]

The more people vent frustrations in this thread, the more I swing back towards thinking Reyna has done a decent job.

 

[ZYanksRule]

The more people vent frustrations in this thread, the more I swing back towards thinking Reyna has done a decent job.

I think there are aspects of his job he's good at. We have recruited some good players. But our salary cap-management seems to be pretty atrocious. And that falls on Reyna, and more importantly on whoever in the front office is in charge of salary cap management.

 

[adam]

Agreed. Reyna has hits and misses, but some supposed misses take a lot of hindsight. Take Mata: the only chance to sell him would have been during the 2016-17 offseason, and I don't think anybody (and certainly not many) was asking for that back then. Then he was hurt early in 2017 and like Sabo said, the best play was to let him go to the WC. But he was hurt again. And his existing injury history was the reason we had to hope the WC would boost his value. If we rushed to sell after he recovered from the 2017 injury any half-witted potential buyer would have been wary.

As for the salary figures, I would need to see a comparison of our roster to at least 4-5 other teams to see how the money is allocated. Everyone has pretty much the same pool for most of it outside of DPs. Unless the rest of MLS is leaving salary money unspent I bet most every team has multiple players whose salary would inspire head scratches. Senior domestic players, which we have fewer of than most teams, seem to end up with outsized salaries just due to seniority and yearly raises.
Finally, with someone like TMac you have to balance on-field value with history, loyalty, fan-love, etc. Most fans are not so cold as many of us here. Selling Tommy to get what, a few hundred grand in GAM/TAM and/or a draft pick would not have been a popular move.

Who you calling cold?

 

[Marito]

I think the balance is so-so compared to other teams in MLS. Of course some teams do wonderfully spending little, and our hated rivals in NJ are exemplary, but also there's teams out there like ORL that spend a lot and get nothing in return. Most of our stinkers are mid-price ones, although they do add up salary-cap wise. It is unrealistic to expect that we'll constantly unearth great deals like Ibeagha, Sweat, Isi, and Callens in his original deal. Castellanos is also well-priced for what he brings. As to Amagat, it is worth noting that Ofori, whom we scouted and tried to sign for a long while, is more expensive and equally underwhelming. Maxi is worth every penny IMHO, and the problem with Medina is not his salary (which is reasonably in line with his production) but the transfer fee that made him a DP. True stinkers IMHO are Wallace, Berget (both because of production but also injury-prone), Matarrita (ditto) and TMac.

 

[Ulrich]

There is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here.

How so? If you aren’t gonna tag a post and just generalize, then your response is kinda vapid. As such, I’ll assume you’re referring to me.

I’ve given Reyna his due in the past and will do so when he hits. I think reyna has uncovered some good players and brought them in, but his tendency to rely on players from fringe national teams hurts our club since MLS plays through breaks. He also holds on to player past their sell-by date in contrast to how the Patriots sell starters to maximize their ability to find a replacement. The trades that were made with Poku and Mullins and Jack resulted in G/Tam, but they weren’t prophetic moves by a GM playing 3dimensional chess, they were reactions to players wanting playing time and a kid who always had aspirations of playing in England - all forced by the players.

Isi is the one player I listed that I have thought was a great signing, but for the reasons I listed needs to be transferred now rather than later. I’m on record multiple times of not thinking the other three players werent worth signing/keeping. I’m also on record saying there was a huge conflict of interest with Reyna as a father versus Reyna as the GM, so my thoughts on the club missing out on Gio are also nothing new.

People and fans are entitled to be unhappy with how the team is being run - whether it’s Monday or Wednesday - because rarely does a team/organization take such a monumental nose dive after such a promising first half of the season, and as much as I blame Turtle Drama for it, the players are showing there are roster flaws; it just so happens the release of the salaries highlights this and the Amagat gaffe brought added scrutiny. Billy Bean would be aghast at the Mata salary considering his past production and injury history (Sweat beat him out last year so why the jump?).

 

[Christopher Jee]

How so? If you aren’t gonna tag a post and just generalize, then your response is kinda vapid. As such, I’ll assume you’re referring to me.

I’ve given Reyna his due in the past and will do so when he hits. I think reyna has uncovered some good players and brought them in, but his tendency to rely on players from fringe national teams hurts our club since MLS plays through breaks. He also holds on to player past their sell-by date in contrast to how the Patriots sell starters to maximize their ability to find a replacement. The trades that were made with Poku and Mullins and Jack resulted in G/Tam, but they weren’t prophetic moves by a GM playing 3dimensional chess, they were reactions to players wanting playing time and a kid who always had aspirations of playing in England - all forced by the players.

Isi is the one player I listed that I have thought was a great signing, but for the reasons I listed needs to be transferred now rather than later. I’m on record multiple times of not thinking the other three players werent worth signing/keeping. I’m also on record saying there was a huge conflict of interest with Reyna as a father versus Reyna as the GM, so my thoughts on the club missing out on Gio are also nothing new.

People and fans are entitled to be unhappy with how the team is being run - whether it’s Monday or Wednesday - because rarely does a team/organization take such a monumental nose dive after such a promising first half of the season, and as much as I blame Turtle Drama for it, the players are showing there are roster flaws; it just so happens the release of the salaries highlights this and the Amagat gaffe brought added scrutiny. Billy Bean would be aghast at the Mata salary considering his past production and injury history (Sweat beat him out last year so why the jump?).

So what's the back story on this Turtle Drama nickname? Did Midas Mulligan take over your account?

 

[LeeNYCFC]

Not to mention Chelsea Cabarcas getting a move to Europe for nothing in return and they never even announced it #ReynaOut

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpFpRksBH5g/?hl=en

 

[Ulrich]

So what's the back story on this Turtle Drama nickname? Did Midas Mulligan take over your account?

I said during the shoutbox, and followed it up Monday, that Dome is nothing more than part of Pep’s entourage - he’s not managerial material. I initially called him Turtle, but Johnny Drama may be more fitting since he’s the one who’s tagged along to great heights purely off the name of his “leader” and is himself a huge step down in ability.

 

[SoupInNYC]

The trades that were made with Poku and Mullins and Jack resulted in G/Tam, but they weren’t prophetic moves by a GM playing 3dimensional chess, they were reactions to players wanting playing time and a kid who always had aspirations of playing in England - all forced by the players.

Reyna deserves at least some credit for these. I don't think anyone anywhere has suggested that he was some maniacal genius for making these, but at the end of the day, he got $5m (or whatever the final fee was) for a superdraft pick, $500k for a supersub who didn't quite fit our new system and was signed from the USL, and GAM/TAM (don't remember the amounts) and an international spot for a guy who was barely getting minutes.

At least some credit should be given for this. Correct, we shouldn't label these as incredibly brilliant moves, but Reyna still pulled the trigger on them and they were beneficial to the club.

Is there any suggestion that the players forced these moves other than their desire for more playing time or to play overseas? (And honestly, I don't think it was Jack's intentions to play in England that "forced" the sale, rather than the $5m pricetage that teams were willing to spend)

 

[gbservis]

How so? If you aren’t gonna tag a post and just generalize, then your response is kinda vapid. As such, I’ll assume you’re referring to me.

I’ve given Reyna his due in the past and will do so when he hits. I think reyna has uncovered some good players and brought them in, but his tendency to rely on players from fringe national teams hurts our club since MLS plays through breaks. He also holds on to player past their sell-by date in contrast to how the Patriots sell starters to maximize their ability to find a replacement. The trades that were made with Poku and Mullins and Jack resulted in G/Tam, but they weren’t prophetic moves by a GM playing 3dimensional chess, they were reactions to players wanting playing time and a kid who always had aspirations of playing in England - all forced by the players.

Isi is the one player I listed that I have thought was a great signing, but for the reasons I listed needs to be transferred now rather than later. I’m on record multiple times of not thinking the other three players werent worth signing/keeping. I’m also on record saying there was a huge conflict of interest with Reyna as a father versus Reyna as the GM, so my thoughts on the club missing out on Gio are also nothing new.

People and fans are entitled to be unhappy with how the team is being run - whether it’s Monday or Wednesday - because rarely does a team/organization take such a monumental nose dive after such a promising first half of the season, and as much as I blame Turtle Drama for it, the players are showing there are roster flaws; it just so happens the release of the salaries highlights this and the Amagat gaffe brought added scrutiny. Billy Bean would be aghast at the Mata salary considering his past production and injury history (Sweat beat him out last year so why the jump?).

To be honest I'm not sure how we accurately evaluate Reyna because I have no idea how to differentiate between his choices and CFG choices. Trades, cap management and domestic signings seem like the most solid areas to tag to Reyna but beyond that it's a toss up.

 

[LeeNYCFC]

To be honest I'm not sure how we accurately evaluate Reyna because I have no idea how to differentiate between his choices and CFG choices. Trades, cap management and domestic signings seem like the most solid areas to tag to Reyna but beyond that it's a toss up.

We also get very little information on who he/CFG may have whiffed or passed on. Hard to judge his decision making without knowing what else was on the table.

 

[EganSoccerWords]

Remember when we could have gotten a (relatively) large transfer fee for Mata? Reyna has an amazing instinct for missing the boat.

ETA and don’t forget Jack forced his hand to move as well. Any transfer fee this team has seen has been the result of the player wanting out, not the club looking to get value while the player is peaking. Love the moves you suggested.

Those were largely BS rumors put out by his old club when we were trying to acquire their half of his rights.

 

[Ulrich]

Reyna deserves at least some credit for these. I don't think anyone anywhere has suggested that he was some maniacal genius for making these, but at the end of the day, he got $5m (or whatever the final fee was) for a superdraft pick, $500k for a supersub who didn't quite fit our new system and was signed from the USL, and GAM/TAM (don't remember the amounts) and an international spot for a guy who was barely getting minutes.

At least some credit should be given for this. Correct, we shouldn't label these as incredibly brilliant moves, but Reyna still pulled the trigger on them and they were beneficial to the club.

Is there any suggestion that the players forced these moves other than their desire for more playing time or to play overseas? (And honestly, I don't think it was Jack's intentions to play in England that "forced" the sale, rather than the $5m pricetage that teams were willing to spend)

Reyna definitely gets credit but these moves were not acts of genius.

Poku was picked up by a club whose owner had visions of grandeur and had zero qualms about overpaying, as he previously demonstrated signing other NASL players of questionable ability; Reyna and the team were beneficiaries of that bravado.

DC made a move for a guy they were very well versed on because of their Pre-draft intel and his college-time proximity; it was always a surprise they didn’t draft him. So they traded for a guy sitting on our bench and whom they made a regular starter; again, Reyna was able to capitalize because DC was willing to overpay for a starting forward.

Jack was in a position to say he didn’t want to go and was happy in MLS, but he didn’t because he was interested in playing in England. Once the foreign interest materialized, CFG stepped in and realized they stood more to gain long term if they did an internal transfer to showcase him. If Jack wasn’t interested, he could have squashed it. So Reyna again made a transfer while being the beneficiary of a good situation via the mothership.

I don’t begrudge Reyna for getting the good deals on each, just that it didn’t take a genius to pull them off - Poku and Mullins were overpaid for, and that doesn’t happen if Reyna was casually shopping them, it’s because those teams came asking and were not in the driver’s seat, which they would have been if Reyna initiated the deals because he was looking to offload.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter and this is just academic, and we both can heap or hold back praise as we see fit, and both or neither may be right. It just pains me to see other teams (SKC, RB, etc) being critically astute and successful with their rosters doing more with less or in the case of ATL, doing a lot more with more.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Reyna definitely gets credit but these moves were not acts of genius.

Poku was picked up by a club whose owner had visions of grandeur and had zero qualms about overpaying, as he previously demonstrated signing other NASL players of questionable ability; Reyna and the team were beneficiaries of that bravado.

DC made a move for a guy they were very well versed on because of their Pre-draft intel and his college-time proximity; it was always a surprise they didn’t draft him. So they traded for a guy sitting on our bench and whom they made a regular starter; again, Reyna was able to capitalize because DC was willing to overpay for a starting forward.

Jack was in a position to say he didn’t want to go and was happy in MLS, but he didn’t because he was interested in playing in England. Once the foreign interest materialized, CFG stepped in and realized they stood more to gain long term if they did an internal transfer to showcase him. If Jack wasn’t interested, he could have squashed it. So Reyna again made a transfer while being the beneficiary of a good situation via the mothership.

I don’t begrudge Reyna for getting the good deals on each, just that it didn’t take a genius to pull them off - Poku and Mullins were overpaid for, and that doesn’t happen if Reyna was casually shopping them, it’s because those teams came asking and were not in the driver’s seat, which they would have been if Reyna initiated the deals because he was looking to offload.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter and this is just academic, and we both can heap or hold back praise as we see fit, and both or neither may be right. It just pains me to see other teams (SKC, RB, etc) being critically astute and successful with their rosters doing more with less or in the case of ATL, doing a lot more with more.

Agreed, it just seemed based on previous posts that we were not giving him any credit whatsoever for these.

And your last paragraph is spot on. I am a bit more optimistic (shocker, haha) that we will be a mix of RB-ATL in 5 years or so once our academy is really providing us with players ready to get first team minutes. I know there are many discussions to be had about how we haven't given our young guys minutes, and we need a USL team, and those are all valid. But once we really have guys from the academy that are 20-24 years of age and we are able to fill out the back end of our roster with them (as well as hopefully have several of them be standouts), it will provide more flexibility to spend more elsewhere.

 

[adam]

So what's the back story on this Turtle Drama nickname? Did Midas Mulligan take over your account?

We’re all Midas Mulligan

 

[Gotham Gator]

Reyna definitely gets credit but these moves were not acts of genius.

Poku was picked up by a club whose owner had visions of grandeur and had zero qualms about overpaying, as he previously demonstrated signing other NASL players of questionable ability; Reyna and the team were beneficiaries of that bravado.

DC made a move for a guy they were very well versed on because of their Pre-draft intel and his college-time proximity; it was always a surprise they didn’t draft him. So they traded for a guy sitting on our bench and whom they made a regular starter; again, Reyna was able to capitalize because DC was willing to overpay for a starting forward.

Jack was in a position to say he didn’t want to go and was happy in MLS, but he didn’t because he was interested in playing in England. Once the foreign interest materialized, CFG stepped in and realized they stood more to gain long term if they did an internal transfer to showcase him. If Jack wasn’t interested, he could have squashed it. So Reyna again made a transfer while being the beneficiary of a good situation via the mothership.

I don’t begrudge Reyna for getting the good deals on each, just that it didn’t take a genius to pull them off - Poku and Mullins were overpaid for, and that doesn’t happen if Reyna was casually shopping them, it’s because those teams came asking and were not in the driver’s seat, which they would have been if Reyna initiated the deals because he was looking to offload.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter and this is just academic, and we both can heap or hold back praise as we see fit, and both or neither may be right. It just pains me to see other teams (SKC, RB, etc) being critically astute and successful with their rosters doing more with less or in the case of ATL, doing a lot more with more.

Maybe the decisions to sell the players were rather obvious, but you need to look at both halves of the deal. These players were acquired for very little - much much less than they were sold for. It was smart to trade up for Harrison and unearth Poku. Reyna and his team haven’t been perfect - nobody is - but those were all astute moves.