Are We Building A Team Or Selling A Brand?

[BxLio91]

There's levels to this shit.

 

[NYCFC_Dan]

Please get back on topic.

 

[Capt.Tsubasa]

Apart from their obvious footballing qualities Lamps and Villa do not only bring prestige and limelight, they also bring their tons of experience into our brand new team. They are the veterans the young guns can look up to and learn from.

That said, I have not been rooting for Frankie before he signed with the team, but now that he is, I am a 100% Frankophile!!

Ain't no hot dogs without Franks!

 

[Midas Mulligan]

Apart from their obvious footballing qualities Lamps and Villa do not only bring prestige and limelight, they also bring their tons of experience into our brand new team. They are the veterans the young guns can look up to and learn from.

That said, I have not been rooting for Frankie before he signed with the team, but now that he is, I am a 100% Frankophile!!

Ain't no hot dogs without Franks!

That does beg the question, yet again:

If you were a fat Frank, would you eat yourself?

And before this turns into a thing, you kids go back and watch the old SNL Harry Caray sketches.

 

[MrE]

MrE, as someone who has been to see Conference (level 5) games and regularly goes to see my local team at Southern Premier League (level 7) level, I can't tell you you're wrong about MLS being level 4-6 strongly enough. At level 6-7 the teams struggle to even string three passes together before kicking the ball out for a throw-in while under no pressure whatsoever, and the primary way goals are scored is by someone punting the ball upfield and the defence just being five metres behind the striker. This is not what MLS is like. The A-League is a dramatic step up from level 4-6 standard, and it is a step behind MLS is quality. MLS is high level 2 to mid level 3 standard.

Falastur,
I do not think the MLS teams would compete at level 2.
The strong ones might at level 3, the majority at level 4. Maybe my 4 - 6 statement did understate it. I am also often around the Southern League and take your point there(I am not based that far from you, indeed I can make Hemel in 30 - 40 mins) and maybe I didn't think it through. Mind you do get some "competitive" games in the Southern leagues and I am sure one or two of the teams would manage a decent cup run against MLS opposition.

 

[Falastur]

I've seen competitive games in the Southern Football League too. I saw competitive games in my Cub Scout league back when I was 10, but it didn't make the standard any good. A level 7 team would get trounced in a cup game by MLS opposition. It wouldn't even be a contest. I remain adamant that the best MLS teams can perform at Championship standard.

 

[MrE]

I've seen competitive games in the Southern Football League too. I saw competitive games in my Cub Scout league back when I was 10, but it didn't make the standard any good. A level 7 team would get trounced in a cup game by MLS opposition. It wouldn't even be a contest. I remain adamant that the best MLS teams can perform at Championship standard.

I agree, most would get trounced, what I was trying to say was there is the possibility of a giant killing Yeovil type run. Like conference sides occasionally get in the FA cup.

 

[Gazza_55]

Falastur,
I do not think the MLS teams would compete at level 2.
The strong ones might at level 3, the majority at level 4. Maybe my 4 - 6 statement did understate it. I am also often around the Southern League and take your point there(I am not based that far from you, indeed I can make Hemel in 30 - 40 mins) and maybe I didn't think it through. Mind you do get some "competitive" games in the Southern leagues and I am sure one or two of the teams would manage a decent cup run against MLS opposition.

Honest Question, Have you ever seen RSL, SKC or Seattle play live? And compared them by watching Leyton Orient, Crawley or Doncaster? Because the statement you made is just ......... well WOW

 

[MagnusPax]

Try last years MLS Cup, to good teams going at it in the final:

 

[Paul]

Try last years MLS Cup, to good teams going at it in the final:

Just the highlights from that match are epic. I have one take away though for NYCFC... Villa better be ready for the physicality of the MLS, especially the MLS playoffs. Some of those defenders looked like they were playing the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs.

 

[MikeDatTiger]

It seems to me that some of the moves have pointed toward bringing glory and recognition to CFG, ie, the UAE due to Euro name recognition.

The rest of MLS has turned their focus on building a good on-field product, not signing big names for the headlines. I fear we're making the mistakes of old.

Here's a post and reply from another website that is indicative of the commentary from dedicated soccer fans in the US. I'm very concerned because I perceive the club's actions the same way these guys seem to. If anyone wonders where it's from, it's from the JJJ thread on bigsoccer.com.

I really fear we're going to suck horribly until the cap is taken off in 20 years. Sadly, the club may not exist then. Without the support of diehard soccer fans right here in the city, no deal for a stadium and no real fanbase will be built. The best way to do that isn't to sign old name guys. It's to build a team that competes every match with hungry players looking to make their own names and carve out their own paths.

Poster1:
My problem isn't Lampard to NYCFC, my problem is Lampard for 8M/Y while it appears a younger and better Jones can't sniff half that, nevermind he's a USNT stud to many.
Yeah, and NYCFC's "2007" approach to the building of their team is frustrating many fans of the league, which is a great sign. The large majority of fans aren't impressed by names anymore, they want on-field production, quality of play, results, value, and if possible, American players.​

Poster2:
Those are signs of a more educated fanbase.

Unfortunately, NYCFC didn't get the memo and they've invested way too much money into this venture for MLS to try to tell them how to spend it. They'll have free reign, as they should...I just wish they understood the current market better.

Then again, maybe New Yorkers really do want a team of fading stars, but I know die-hard fans in KC, Houston, Seattle, Portland, Toronto, Salt Lake etc. etc. don't want that. They want to win multiple CCL titles with mostly young, exciting talent.​

To avoid the "Is MLS at the English Tier 4" discussion and get back to your point, I'm not sure this criticism is ripe.

1) That number for Lampard at 8M a year is unconfirmed. I've seen 4M in some places. It might be true, but we have to wait and see.
2) Is Jermaine Jones interested in NYCFC? Does he fit into Kreis's system? Was he available for NYCFC to sign? These are a lot of questions. If not Jones, what other Americans are out there that are available? Green is locked in Bayern, Yedlin is off to Europe, Besler just resigned with SKC. Jozy isn't showing like he wants to leave Sunderland.
3) It's worth pointing out that these are free transfers. We may be paying good wages, but we can do that because we didn't have to pay a transfer fee.
4) NYCFC does have a good American talent already acquired in Jeb Brovsky.
5) Most American talent will be acquired in the winter.
6) You want exciting players? How about 4 players from Manchester City's academy? You know, the ones who just walked in Sporting Park and made the defending MLS Champs look like Chivas.
7) NYCFC has announced partnerships with local clubs and has an academy in the works (if not already announced). Building up young American players takes time and hard work; it's unfair to expect NYCFC to be producing academy talents in Year 1 when it's just starting that building process.
8) Houston just signed 32 Demarcus Beasley. Seattle has 32 year old Clint Dempsey. Toronto has 31 yr old Jermaine Defoe. Portland just signed 30 year Ridgewell. That's not to say they don't have some young exciting talent (Bradley, Valeri, Besler, Zusi, Martins (29)) but they have that talent alongside older players.
9) Thierry Henry is 36 and is still doing fantastic things in MLS. Lampard and Villa can be excellent contributors in both skill and leadership to the young team that will surround them and whoever the final DP is.
10) Can we wait and see what a) the roster actually looks like and b) how they look on the field before passing judgment?

 

[Tom in Fairfield CT]

Any analysis of MLS level compared to other leagues starts with Liga MX in my opinion. Since our best get beaten the majority of the time by Liga MX in cup competitions, I think you must say that they are still a level ahead of MLS. If MLS is good enough to compete in Championship level in England, does that mean Liga MX is Premier quality.

I don't think so. Until we start beating Liga MX in the concacaf cup, any comparison to top leagues in the world are empty.

 

[MikeDatTiger]

Any analysis of MLS level compared to other leagues starts with Liga MX in my opinion. Since our best get beaten the majority of the time by Liga MX in cup competitions, I think you must say that they are still a level ahead of MLS. If MLS is good enough to compete in Championship level in England, does that mean Liga MX is Premier quality.

I don't think so. Until we start beating Liga MX in the concacaf cup, any comparison to top leagues in the world are empty.

I disagree. MLS keeps losing in CONCACAF Cup because of when they're played. The playoff matches are in the first two weeks of the MLS season while Liga MX has teams that in midseason form. MLS teams are at an incredible disadvantage in that tournament such that it makes it difficult to determine how the teams match up.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Some great, civil debate in this thread. I am really enjoying learning more about the North American leagues and everyone's perspectives on the relative quality of the MLS and what it means for our club's development.

I have a few additional questions to add to the mix (no pun intended):

Would you now consider the MLS to be on par with the Brasilian league?

Is the NYCFC brand just as important as the performance outcomes?

Is there anything NYCFC could do right now that would cause you to stop supporting the club? What about the opposite, in order to prompt your less-involved mates to support the club?

 

[MikeDatTiger]

Some great, civil debate in this thread. I am really enjoying learning more about the North American leagues and everyone's perspectives on the relative quality of the MLS and what it means for our club's development.

I have a few additional questions to add to the mix (no pun intended):

Would you now consider the MLS to be on par with the Brasilian league?

Is the NYCFC brand just as important as the performance outcomes?

Is there anything NYCFC could do right now that would cause you to stop supporting the club? What about the opposite, in order to prompt your less-involved mates to support the club?

I honestly know next to nothing about the Brasilian league other than they seem to produce a lot of quality footballers but that, for whatever reason, the actual clubs are not as well thought of both from the outside and inside.

I the NYCFC brand is important to MLS in that I think for American soccer to be strong we need a strong NY team. Performance is a huge part of that, but getting fans in the seats is too. We want kids who are intrigued, watch NYCFC and then play soccer/support soccer. I think Americans care more about winners than just brand, so I'll say no but it's not too far off. It just seems to me that in this world having a strong brand and the resulting financial success has so much to do with the on field performance that its hard to really distinguish the two.

Move to Sacramento? Other than horrible crimes, I can't think of much normal soccer stuff they could do.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I honestly know next to nothing about the Brasilian league other than they seem to produce a lot of quality footballers but that, for whatever reason, the actual clubs are not as well thought of both from the outside and inside.

I the NYCFC brand is important to MLS in that I think for American soccer to be strong we need a strong NY team. Performance is a huge part of that, but getting fans in the seats is too. We want kids who are intrigued, watch NYCFC and then play soccer/support soccer. I think Americans care more about winners than just brand, so I'll say no but it's not too far off. It just seems to me that in this world having a strong brand and the resulting financial success has so much to do with the on field performance that its hard to really distinguish the two.

Move to Sacramento? Other than horrible crimes, I can't think of much normal soccer stuff they could do.

That is a fair point, though, I feel it is more correct with America than most other countries. I say that because after having spent quite a lot of time in the US, England, and Spain I can confidently say that Spanish and English supporters see performance outcomes and brand (or identity, if you prefer less business-like terms) to be two separate elements to a club's makeup, while it has been my experience that American link them closely, as you have said. That's not to say that is a more or less fair evaluation of the relative success of an organisation but it does mean operating a football/soccer team in the US presents different challenges—namely a club's win-draw-loss record seems (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong) slightly more important overall to American supporters than the organisation being civilly inclusive and responsive.

I may be talking out of my hat, though.

 

[MrE]

Honest Question, Have you ever seen RSL, SKC or Seattle play live? And compared them by watching Leyton Orient, Crawley or Doncaster? Because the statement you made is just ......... well WOW

Watch the football not the razamataz.

 

[einwindir]

Is there anything NYCFC could do right now that would cause you to stop supporting the club?

The only thing that would completely turn me off is if it were revealed officially that CFG planned on using NYCFC as a feeder club. It would cheapen the game and all the players involved. It would make us as fans look like 2nd rate fools to everyone else in MLS. It would be a complete slap in the face.

Thankfully this particular topic s a nonissue but it would be my 'awwwwww helllll no" moment.

 

[Midas Mulligan]

The only thing that would completely turn me off is if it were revealed officially that CFG planned on using NYCFC as a feeder club. It would cheapen the game and all the players involved. It would make us as fans look like 2nd rate fools to everyone else in MLS. It would be a complete slap in the face.

Thankfully this particular topic s a nonissue but it would be my 'awwwwww helllll no" moment.

I mean, when it comes down to it, what's the difference in a billionaire owning a team because he wants to be cool or he wants his country to be cool? I guess not a whole lot if you don't think about the political issues related to UAE.

I'm not going to touch those. That's a filthy can of worms for another day and another forum.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I mean, when it comes down to it, what's the difference in a billionaire owning a team because he wants to be cool or he wants his country to be cool? I guess not a whole lot if you don't think about the political issues related to UAE.

I'm not going to touch those. That's a filthy can of worms for another day and another forum.

They've been covered in length already on twitter—by many, including me. It is an element that I find fault with on many levels from both sides of the argument.

The only thing that would completely turn me off is if it were revealed officially that CFG planned on using NYCFC as a feeder club. It would cheapen the game and all the players involved. It would make us as fans look like 2nd rate fools to everyone else in MLS. It would be a complete slap in the face.

Thankfully this particular topic s a nonissue but it would be my 'awwwwww helllll no" moment.

That certainly would be disheartening. I do not believe that is the case, thankfully. That said, take it from one of the many long-suffering blues, that reality will not stop rival supporters from attempting arguments otherwise. Just ignore them (that makes them more angry than anything you can say).