2021 Roster Discussion

I’m also not claiming he’s been great. But even if buyouts were unlimited, they should be reserved for negatively disruptive players. Guys you just can’t succeed with. Morales is clearly not in that category. Maybe he only plays against weaker teams. Maybe he only plays when our best back line is in place. I didn’t control for any of that. Maybe he’s subject to some sort of compensation effect where everyone plays better because they know that they have to makeup for his failings. I mean that sounds stupid but I can't rule it out. But the bottom line is we can and do succeed when he plays. Whenever a rising young player (or coach) wants to leave inevitably someone says in the long run you have to let players go in order to sign more good players in the future. Fine. I mean, it's the kind of boring conventional wisdom that doesn't need to be said as often as it is, but fine. But you also need to sign solid cheap and mid-range and veteran and coming back from Europe players, and if you cut them after one year because you decided you paid them too much and tell the world you would rather pay them to leave than have them on the roster, even though you win more when they play than when they don't? Someone is going to notice. Word will get out. You can't do that.

And I'm tired of the casual and repeated expressions of disdain and contempt, which are often wrong.

When Tommy McNamara left, some NYCFC fans still loved him, but a sizable contingent was not just happy to see him leave, but obnoxious about it. We had people repeating stupid nicknames about how fat, slow, and useless he was. And so far this year he has played in every game but one and about 66% of the minutes for a team that just won Supporters Shield and might set an MLS record for points in a season. He's not the primary driver at all. I'm not even slightly regretful that we let him go. But he's a useful player on a great team and all those obnoxious comments just look even more ridiculous in retrospect.

Eric Miller left here with basically no fans, and a lot of vitriol. I won't claim I saw something in him that others didn't. He was never anywhere near as good as even T-Mac ever was. Again I have no regrets about letting him go. But he's played more than 30% of available minutes on the back line of the team that leads the league in fewest goals allowed. Of course, that's 85% because of Walker Zimmerman and maybe 0.5% due to Eric Miller. Maybe Miller will be even be cut in the off-season. But for now in 2021 the coach keeps putting him in and the defense gets the job done so maybe he isn't as dogsh!t as people said.

I'm not against criticizing players. But when people turn on one of them and decide he's not up to par, it gets vicious and often just wrong and completely blown beyond reality. And it's tiresome.

Yes. The repetition of such extreme negativity, especially when it's wrong, is tiresome. Every game chat lately, if Morales is in the lineup someone says it's a guaranteed loss. If one person forgets to say it, someone else chimes in. Clockwork. Well guess what. That's pretty much the opposite of true. Maybe Morales is just lucky, but we win more when he plays than when he doesn't. So maybe look at that and think and come up with a reason that actually adds to the conversation, that isn't just the same repetitive blah blah that everyone copies and becomes groupthink. Maybe you* can find some common element in the games he plays that causes the team to do better despite his shortcomings. That would actually be interesting if you did that, instead of just assuming and constantly repeating that the team does worse when he plays because someone else said it and people agreed, so it's safe. Because it isn't even accurate. Maybe use some thought, and checking, and generate fresh content and show some creativity. But instead we had a half dozen people saying we should buy him out this week. Just like we've had a half dozen or more people all repeating various other things this season that I checked and found just were not true.

Yes. I'm getting kind of burnt out with the forums.

* Not you SoupInNYC - you add more original thought than almost anyone here.
Some good stuff. I’ve been thinking about Tommy Mac. I didn’t start getting into NYCFC and the MLS until 2018 so he wasn’t here that long in my time being a fan but I knew he was kind of a hometown hero. I maybe didn’t see the best of TMac here and wasn’t broken up when he left but damn, I feel like I’ve seen great determination and effective play with the Revs.
regarding the forums, I get being annoyed with the negativity but I would say just continue to post good stuff. Focusing on the overly pessimistic stuff ends up kind of being the same as being a complainer about the club. Our culture is really into this right now. Criticism is good and vital but so much is not constructive. I said this yesterday, I’ve learned a good deal on the forum and thank whoever runs this and many of the contributors. Not even sure how I got on this ride. Who’s driving this anyway?
Complaining about a team that went from being in contention for the supporters shield at the beginning of August to falling below the playoff line in just over two months is going to stoke irrational negativity. It’s sports and it’s america.
In conclusion…
No really. This is a cool way to be more involved with the club and learn stuff. What a nutty team. How awesome was last night. 3 goals were scored before I got to me seat last night and I still saw 3 more. Just bonkers.
 
I’m also not claiming he’s been great. But even if buyouts were unlimited, they should be reserved for negatively disruptive players. Guys you just can’t succeed with. Morales is clearly not in that category. Maybe he only plays against weaker teams. Maybe he only plays when our best back line is in place. I didn’t control for any of that. Maybe he’s subject to some sort of compensation effect where everyone plays better because they know that they have to makeup for his failings. I mean that sounds stupid but I can't rule it out. But the bottom line is we can and do succeed when he plays. Whenever a rising young player (or coach) wants to leave inevitably someone says in the long run you have to let players go in order to sign more good players in the future. Fine. I mean, it's the kind of boring conventional wisdom that doesn't need to be said as often as it is, but fine. But you also need to sign solid cheap and mid-range and veteran and coming back from Europe players, and if you cut them after one year because you decided you paid them too much and tell the world you would rather pay them to leave than have them on the roster, even though you win more when they play than when they don't? Someone is going to notice. Word will get out. You can't do that.

And I'm tired of the casual and repeated expressions of disdain and contempt, which are often wrong.

When Tommy McNamara left, some NYCFC fans still loved him, but a sizable contingent was not just happy to see him leave, but obnoxious about it. We had people repeating stupid nicknames about how fat, slow, and useless he was. And so far this year he has played in every game but one and about 66% of the minutes for a team that just won Supporters Shield and might set an MLS record for points in a season. He's not the primary driver at all. I'm not even slightly regretful that we let him go. But he's a useful player on a great team and all those obnoxious comments just look even more ridiculous in retrospect.

Eric Miller left here with basically no fans, and a lot of vitriol. I won't claim I saw something in him that others didn't. He was never anywhere near as good as even T-Mac ever was. Again I have no regrets about letting him go. But he's played more than 30% of available minutes on the back line of the team that leads the league in fewest goals allowed. Of course, that's 85% because of Walker Zimmerman and maybe 0.5% due to Eric Miller. Maybe Miller will be even be cut in the off-season. But for now in 2021 the coach keeps putting him in and the defense gets the job done so maybe he isn't as dogsh!t as people said.

I'm not against criticizing players. But when people turn on one of them and decide he's not up to par, it gets vicious and often just wrong and completely blown beyond reality. And it's tiresome.

Yes. The repetition of such extreme negativity, especially when it's wrong, is tiresome. Every game chat lately, if Morales is in the lineup someone says it's a guaranteed loss. If one person forgets to say it, someone else chimes in. Clockwork. Well guess what. That's pretty much the opposite of true. Maybe Morales is just lucky, but we win more when he plays than when he doesn't. So maybe look at that and think and come up with a reason that actually adds to the conversation, that isn't just the same repetitive blah blah that everyone copies and becomes groupthink. Maybe you* can find some common element in the games he plays that causes the team to do better despite his shortcomings. That would actually be interesting if you did that, instead of just assuming and constantly repeating that the team does worse when he plays because someone else said it and people agreed, so it's safe. Because it isn't even accurate. Maybe use some thought, and checking, and generate fresh content and show some creativity. But instead we had a half dozen people saying we should buy him out this week. Just like we've had a half dozen or more people all repeating various other things this season that I checked and found just were not true.

Yes. I'm getting kind of burnt out with the forums.

* Not you SoupInNYC - you add more original thought than almost anyone here.

This is an excellent post. I have been down on Morales, but it is fair and warranted for me to consider that take.

My biggest issue with Morales - and to a lesser extent, Medina - is the turnover in the middle of the field that always seems to come from lack of awareness or slow decisions. Eye test or not, no two players seem to lose the ball in one on one situations than those two. Morales creates more frustration because Medina at times can offer moments of inspiration on offense.

That noted, I respect the data and realize that I may be prone to seeing what I want to see. Morales also shouldn't be penalized for time he was forced into at center back. However, if there is any data available about "one on one duel rate in midfield" I would be curious to see the figures for Morales and Medina.
 
He’s not as good as Ring and he’s a less than mediocre athlete. He can’t make up for mistakes by those around him. Ring could.
 
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I’m also not claiming he’s been great. But even if buyouts were unlimited, they should be reserved for negatively disruptive players. Guys you just can’t succeed with. Morales is clearly not in that category. Maybe he only plays against weaker teams. Maybe he only plays when our best back line is in place. I didn’t control for any of that. Maybe he’s subject to some sort of compensation effect where everyone plays better because they know that they have to makeup for his failings. I mean that sounds stupid but I can't rule it out. But the bottom line is we can and do succeed when he plays. Whenever a rising young player (or coach) wants to leave inevitably someone says in the long run you have to let players go in order to sign more good players in the future. Fine. I mean, it's the kind of boring conventional wisdom that doesn't need to be said as often as it is, but fine. But you also need to sign solid cheap and mid-range and veteran and coming back from Europe players, and if you cut them after one year because you decided you paid them too much and tell the world you would rather pay them to leave than have them on the roster, even though you win more when they play than when they don't? Someone is going to notice. Word will get out. You can't do that.

And I'm tired of the casual and repeated expressions of disdain and contempt, which are often wrong.

When Tommy McNamara left, some NYCFC fans still loved him, but a sizable contingent was not just happy to see him leave, but obnoxious about it. We had people repeating stupid nicknames about how fat, slow, and useless he was. And so far this year he has played in every game but one and about 66% of the minutes for a team that just won Supporters Shield and might set an MLS record for points in a season. He's not the primary driver at all. I'm not even slightly regretful that we let him go. But he's a useful player on a great team and all those obnoxious comments just look even more ridiculous in retrospect.

Eric Miller left here with basically no fans, and a lot of vitriol. I won't claim I saw something in him that others didn't. He was never anywhere near as good as even T-Mac ever was. Again I have no regrets about letting him go. But he's played more than 30% of available minutes on the back line of the team that leads the league in fewest goals allowed. Of course, that's 85% because of Walker Zimmerman and maybe 0.5% due to Eric Miller. Maybe Miller will be even be cut in the off-season. But for now in 2021 the coach keeps putting him in and the defense gets the job done so maybe he isn't as dogsh!t as people said.

I'm not against criticizing players. But when people turn on one of them and decide he's not up to par, it gets vicious and often just wrong and completely blown beyond reality. And it's tiresome.

Yes. The repetition of such extreme negativity, especially when it's wrong, is tiresome. Every game chat lately, if Morales is in the lineup someone says it's a guaranteed loss. If one person forgets to say it, someone else chimes in. Clockwork. Well guess what. That's pretty much the opposite of true. Maybe Morales is just lucky, but we win more when he plays than when he doesn't. So maybe look at that and think and come up with a reason that actually adds to the conversation, that isn't just the same repetitive blah blah that everyone copies and becomes groupthink. Maybe you* can find some common element in the games he plays that causes the team to do better despite his shortcomings. That would actually be interesting if you did that, instead of just assuming and constantly repeating that the team does worse when he plays because someone else said it and people agreed, so it's safe. Because it isn't even accurate. Maybe use some thought, and checking, and generate fresh content and show some creativity. But instead we had a half dozen people saying we should buy him out this week. Just like we've had a half dozen or more people all repeating various other things this season that I checked and found just were not true.

Yes. I'm getting kind of burnt out with the forums.

* Not you SoupInNYC - you add more original thought than almost anyone here.


I don't disagree with your premise that fans (myself included) can get wrapped up in unfair/inaccurate narratives about players that are widely unsubstantiated with data. In the cases of Morles however, I think you are being a bit unfair in not acknowledging that majority of the buyout Morales posts on the forum came after the salaries came out and it was revealed that he makes $662K and is the 9th highest-paid player in the team well ahead of guys like Parks, Rodrigez, and Sands. Given the cap limitations of the league, I think it's totally reasonable for people to question if Moreles' contributions justify the sizeable chunk of our salary budget he takes up and if we couldn't do better with that money if the team bought him out.
 
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I remember there was a discussion about streaks for the team, and if I recall correctly (feel free to correct me) someone concluded that the streaks seem to be very random, though there do tend to be events around when the streaks change.

...Do we think it's fair to say that Tinnerholm's injury caused this change? Not because tinnerholm is bad, because he's not and we all know he's great, but maybe because it forced the team to change formation, mentality, etc, and maybe that shifted things into gear? Curious to hear other people's opinions!
 
I remember there was a discussion about streaks for the team, and if I recall correctly (feel free to correct me) someone concluded that the streaks seem to be very random, though there do tend to be events around when the streaks change.

...Do we think it's fair to say that Tinnerholm's injury caused this change? Not because tinnerholm is bad, because he's not and we all know he's great, but maybe because it forced the team to change formation, mentality, etc, and maybe that shifted things into gear? Curious to hear other people's opinions!

It does seem like they found something in this Sands to RB experiment. But honestly, I think they just needed a goal, and when they got it in Atlanta, the floodgates opened. They were never as bad as they looked during that scoreless streak. When they got that goal, you could see the monkey get off their back.
 
I need us to sell Sands to a German team just so we can say that four NYCFC players are currently playing starting minutes in the Bundesliga.
Angelino,
Scally,
Reyna,
Sands

lol
Yep!

Plus one in La Liga and one in the EPL.

Plus Shelton got a cup of coffee in the Bundesliga too.*


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* - Nice goal for Khiry this past weekend.
 
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My 14-YO son asked the following question this morning, and I told him I'd bring it up here.

Would you take another season of Maxi on a non-DP contract?

I would.
 
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My 14-YO son asked the following question this morning, and I told him I'd bring it up here.

Would you take another season of Maxi on a non-DP contract?

I would.
On a non-DP? Maybe. He's very good, but clearly as the years go by not the same form he was before. Having one extra player on the roster taking up cap space where we can find someone less than 34 years old to do the job doesn't make too much sense.

For sentimentality I would love him here, though.

I doubt he would though, as he's publicly stated it's his last season.
 
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My 14-YO son asked the following question this morning, and I told him I'd bring it up here.

Would you take another season of Maxi on a non-DP contract?

I would.

I would but only if he was open to accepting a smaller role, possibly coming off the bench instead of starting. He is still our best distributer in the attack, he provides stability when he plays high up the field, but he doesn't have the legs to drop deep to be the central cog of the transition anymore.
 
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My 14-YO son asked the following question this morning, and I told him I'd bring it up here.

Would you take another season of Maxi on a non-DP contract?

I would.

No. A DP contract is actually better than a maxed out or TAM contract. He’s have to be on 350k or so in my eyes to be worth it.
 
Maxi has 10 assists this season, tied for 9th in MLS. For non-penalty xG+xA, he is 17th.*

I think he's worth a TAM contract. We need veteran leadership; we need depth at the 10. He can rotate with Santi.

With him off a DP contract, we can sign another DP. There is so much money available for TAM right now, that we should be able to buy him down to that $250K-300K level. I don't see the downside.

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* - Taty is 6th; Medina is 38th; Tajouri-Shradi is 44th; Santi would be 57th if he had enough minutes to qualify.
 
I don't think Maxi had a DP-level season, but he certainly had a good season. He stayed healthy, he has 10 assists, and while he's definitely slowing down, is still a more-than useful player. I think we all assume he's leaving after this year so it's a hypothetical, but I would absolutely have him back on a non-DP deal.
 
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He drifts in and out of games and he’s lost a step. Some of those numbers are deceiving. Not saying he can’t be a useful player, but even on a TAM contract, it may be much. By the eye test, he struggles at times in ways he hasn’t before this season.
 
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Taty, Johnson, (subs) Parks in this week's TOTW

Then again Team of the Week is always such an absurd lineup. They don't ever list a DM unless he scores on a bicycle kick from midfield or something like that, and they always put only 3 defenders because, you know, they don't score enough.