Minnesota - Postmatch

[dummyrun]

I'm more annoyed with the organization than with Torrent. All of those guys but one were hired during the offseason. The one who wasn't was Vermes who took over a team with a losing record through 18 games. All the guys who took over offseason also took over teams with a losing record, except one again. That was Marsch, and his team won Supporters Shield his first year. NYCFC is the only one to undergo a midseason coaching change for reasons completely non-beneficial to the team and show the effects of chaos.

Really, the obvious comparison you left out and which we all here pretty much never talk about is Chris Armas. Armas got 30 points in his first 15 games with RBNY.

Both Red Bulls and NYCFC lost coaches this midseason.
Both clubs are part of worldwide soccer organizations.
Both Red Bull GmbH and CFG have adopted a uniform playing style for all of their organizations and boast of plug'n'play interchangeability for coaches and players.
Jesse Marsch spent part of his 3+ years at RBNY training his replacement.
Patrick Vieira spent the last 3 months of his 2.5 years at NYCFC looking for another job and took his most trusted assistants with him.
Marsch left RBNY under terms set by Red Bull GmbH.
Vieira left against the wishes of CFG.
Red Bull GmbH has a plan for all of their clubs and personnel.
CFG hired Pep Guardiola for Man City and left Vieira twisting in the wind when he saw they were working on a Pep extension.
Red Bull GmbH brought Marsch in as an assistant to their flagship club after 3.5 years at RBNY and elevated his RBNY assistant who knew that team well.
CFG let Vieira walk after 2.5 years because they had no plan for him to move forward, then hired Pep's Man City assistant for NYCFC, who was unfamiliar with NYCFC, and publicly expressed confusion about MLS scheduling and other quirks. He then tinkered with a team that was 15-9-8 when he arrived to the point where they have managed less than a point per game over their last 11.
Armas just coached a game without his two most important players (not by his choice) against the best team in the league and won 2-0.
Torrent just coached a game without his 2 most important players (by his choice) against the 16th best team in the league and lost 2-1.
RBNY earned 32 points in 16 games under Marsch, 2.00 PPG.
RBNY earned 30 points in 15 games under Armas, 2.00 PPG.
NYCFC earned 28 points in 15 games under Vieira, 1.87 PPG.
NYCFC earned 25 points in 17 games under Torrent, 1.47 PPG.

RBNY and Red Bull GmbH had a plan for RBNY. CFG/NYCFC have a plan for Man City, and afterthoughts for NYCFC.
Sure, maybe Torrent and NYCFC turn it around for the playoffs. There's no sign of that but it could happen. Even if it does, though, the CFG claims of interoperability and synergy have been revealed as a joke, and as nothing more than vacuous corporate jibber jabber.







Also, left this to the end because it would distract from my main point, but it was 22 points for the first 15 games under Torrent, not 23.

Armas didn't really speak to my point, which was about how guys building systems have performed after their first 15 games, but he's an interesting point of comparison. RBNY's style is uniquely well suited to replacing players (and apparently coaches): if you can learn your pressing responsibilities, bust your ass, and always kick the ball toward goal, you're pretty much good to go. All season they've been able to rotate in their B team without much of a dropoff, even with an inexpensive bench. And yeah, the years of continuity definitely help.

Thanks for the point total correction. I'm sure I made some other mistakes while eyeballing those numbers from Wikipedia after a couple beers.

 

[Ulrich]

Armas didn't really speak to my point, which was about how guys building systems have performed after their first 15 games, but he's an interesting point of comparison. RBNY's style is uniquely well suited to replacing players (and apparently coaches): if you can learn your pressing responsibilities, bust your ass, and always kick the ball toward goal, you're pretty much good to go. All season they've been able to rotate in their B team without much of a dropoff, even with an inexpensive bench. And yeah, the years of continuity definitely help.

Thanks for the point total correction. I'm sure I made some other mistakes while eyeballing those numbers from Wikipedia after a couple beers.

I’m sorry, but what system did Dome need to put in again? My understanding is that we were previously playing the City’s Way under PV, and if Dome came from the mothership, there really shouldn’t have been any sort of drastic change. Or is the City Way just a BS line for marketing?

 

[Christopher Jee]

I’m sorry, but what system did Dome need to put in again? My understanding is that we were previously playing the City’s Way under PV, and if Dome came from the mothership, there really shouldn’t have been any sort of drastic change. Or is the City Way just a BS line for marketing?

How dare you suggest that our marketing and PR could ever be less than accurate, timely or perfectly on tone?!

 

[roxfontaine]

I’m sorry, but what system did Dome need to put in again? My understanding is that we were previously playing the City’s Way under PV, and if Dome came from the mothership, there really shouldn’t have been any sort of drastic change. Or is the City Way just a BS line for marketing?

This is exactly what has me confused. I don't understand how Dome is so confident about what he is seeing on the pitch through his lens but can't seem to figure out what the next step is to have the results match his assessment of the play. If I remember correctly, he specifically stated that "this is Pep's system" in an interview. If that's the case, then it is entirely fair to assume that Dome is the problem.

 

[mgarbowski]

Armas didn't really speak to my point, which was about how guys building systems have performed after their first 15 games, but he's an interesting point of comparison. RBNY's style is uniquely well suited to replacing players (and apparently coaches): if you can learn your pressing responsibilities, bust your ass, and always kick the ball toward goal, you're pretty much good to go. All season they've been able to rotate in their B team without much of a dropoff, even with an inexpensive bench. And yeah, the years of continuity definitely help.

Thanks for the point total correction. I'm sure I made some other mistakes while eyeballing those numbers from Wikipedia after a couple beers.

The Armas thing wasn't really meant as a rejoinder to you, though it came off that way (my fault), because I never would have written it if you hadn't spurred me to consider comparables.

 

[mgarbowski]

Torrent is not having regular-season success, but what if he wins the first knockout game? I think it would be somewhat fair to discount it as it will be against a 5 or 6 seed. But then what if he wins the next and gets to the conf finals? Not saying it will happen, but does our criticism of him change?

I'll give a qualified yes, but a yes. I'm judging him by results so I have to credit him if the team goes further than expected come playoffs. You can build an argument about small sample sizes and playoffs, but he's getting killed now for a larger but still small sample size, so fair is fair. My limitation is I still would need convincing about longer-term regular season results. I'll stick to the benchmark I put forth about a week ago: a half season and ~25 points is where I start thinking about dropping him, and it would take a substantial second half (and 2019 playoff) turnaround to undo that preference.

 

[Christopher Jee]

This is exactly what has me confused. I don't understand how Dome is so confident about what he is seeing on the pitch through his lens but can't seem to figure out what the next step is to have the results match his assessment of the play. If I remember correctly, he specifically stated that "this is Pep's system" in an interview. If that's the case, then it is entirely fair to assume that Dome is the problem.

FWIW I don't think his assessment is that far off, modulo language disparity and attributing more of our play in either box to lack of cohesion and lineup consistency.

 

[FredMertz]

There was no reason to change anything this year. It can only be explained by his ego desiring to show off his brilliance.

Be a caretaker for 3 months, put your imprint on the team during the off-season.

 

[dummyrun]

There was no reason to change anything this year.

 

[Ulrich]

Nah, that didn’t change anything. Ofori was already blooded before Dome arrived and then continued to get time afterwards while we were winning, so he had been assimilated enough to keep the harmony of the system in place.

When Herrera is playing great he’s lights out, but he wasn’t playing well before he got injured. Saying otherwise is a reach to justify Dome’s fidgeting and tinkering.

 

[gbservis]

Nah, that didn’t change anything. Ofori was already blooded before Dome arrived and then continued to get time afterwards while we were winning, so he had been assimilated enough to keep the harmony of the system in place.

When Herrera is playing great he’s lights out, but he wasn’t playing well before he got injured. Saying otherwise is a reach to justify Dome’s fidgeting and tinkering.

Based on what he's done in Dome's diamond I think Mata could actually have been a decent drop in for Herrera that required minimal changes to PVs 4-3-3. Herrera is a much much better defender/destroyer but Mata matches him well as a super athletic box to box that can get up and down the field. He also shares many of the same deficiencies as Herrera was showing before he went down. Both Struggle to finish in the box, both mentally check out and disappear for stretches and both are prone to stretches of time where they pass the ball to the other team more than their teammates.

Ofori is also serviceable as you mention, he is worse than Herrera in most categories but may actually be a better passer with his one foot.

 

[Davo15]

This team is so frustrating. I'm a Bills fan lord knows I'm used to rooting for teams that suck Problem here is this team doesn't suck on paper or based on what we saw earlier in the year. Something is really wrong here.

 

[Ulrich]

Based on what he's done in Dome's diamond I think Mata could actually have been a decent drop in for Herrera that required minimal changes to PVs 4-3-3. Herrera is a much much better defender/destroyer but Mata matches him well as a super athletic box to box that can get up and down the field. He also shares many of the same deficiencies as Herrera was showing before he went down. Both Struggle to finish in the box, both mentally check out and disappear for stretches and both are prone to stretches of time where they pass the ball to the other team more than their teammates.

Ofori is also serviceable as you mention, he is worse than Herrera in most categories but may actually be a better passer with his one foot.

I by no means think/thought Ofori was the permanent answer, and Mata does tick of the boxes you mentioned, but Ofori did a very admirable job helping the team consistently win even though he had glaring deficiencies that were harped on. He was more than adequate to keep the system going - he biggest issue was he was the absolute lowest tier to do so with no depth behind him; we really needed more depth of equal or better nature, not a completely different style of player/different tactics to fit the player.

 

[FredMertz]

Does not justify the level of tinkering, especially given there was a transfer window in which to make a best efforts attempt to replace him.