Minnesota - Postmatch

[Ulrich]

Maybe we have different understandings of what existential means but I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Perhaps it was the wrong word by me, but was meant in that you shouldn’t take a big philosophical deep dive to rationalize that what the club did last night was promising. You’re probably the most “deep” thinking person on the forums, looking at stuff on three dimensional levels, and add serious rhetoric and value to the boards.... that said, last night was just more of the same with NYCFC in that the team cannot score and has zero creative ideas in the attacking third, and it isn’t a new thing but a recurring problem and trend with the team. There’s nothing philosophical about the current play other than its highly ineffective at winning.

 

[Christopher Jee]

Perhaps it was the wrong word by me, but was meant in that you shouldn’t take a big philosophical deep dive to rationalize that what the club did last night was promising. You’re probably the most “deep” thinking person on the forums, looking at stuff on three dimensional levels, and add serious rhetoric and value to the boards.... that said, last night was just more of the same with NYCFC in that the team cannot score and has zero creative ideas in the attacking third, and it isn’t a new thing but a recurring problem and trend with the team. There’s nothing philosophical about the current play other than its highly ineffective at winning.

Thanks.

For me, trying to rationalize what's happening on a finer-grain level is therapeutic. The things that you point out are clear - Dome's presence as coach for the rest of the season is a lock. His presence beyond that is arguably out of our control. Just bemoaning these things adds little value for me.

Trying to figure out why they are happening is just one way to try and take something positive or constructive away from what is, on the surface of it, a complete bummer of a situation, whether that is about deepening my understanding of the game in general, or identifying arguments that run counter to the dominant narrative.

I'm not giving up on the team yet. I think most of what we saw last night points to a lack of familiarity and / or talent. Fortunately, gaining that familiarity or putting that talent on the field is more tractable than replacing a coach with 3 games left in the regular season.

 

[Ulrich]

Thanks.

For me, trying to rationalize what's happening on a finer-grain level is therapeutic. The things that you point out are clear - Dome's presence as coach for the rest of the season is a lock. His presence beyond that is arguably out of our control. Just bemoaning these things adds little value for me.

Trying to figure out why they are happening is just one way to try and take something positive or constructive away from what is, on the surface of it, a complete bummer of a situation, whether that is about deepening my understanding of the game in general, or identifying arguments that run counter to the dominant narrative.

I'm not giving up on the team yet. I think most of what we saw last night points to a lack of familiarity and / or talent. Fortunately, gaining that familiarity or putting that talent on the field is more tractable than replacing a coach with 3 games left in the regular season.

If my opining is taken as I hope Dome is replaced now, then I’m either not relaying my thoughts properly, or I’m being misinterpreted. As much as I’d like him to go, I’m realistic he won’t be replaced immediately nor would we get a short term savior (although at this point I’d take Moyes on a caretaker role through the playoffs since I can’t handle our headless-chicken tactics), but I very much hope Dome is on the first plane back to Manchester the same night we get bounced from the playoffs.

I frankly don’t think Dome is up to being a coach in a league short on full-squad talent. He’s a curator of tactics and ideas that only work with the top echelon of talent, and any derivation and drop from top level skilled players means that the tactics employed cannot uniformly be executed. What our team needs is a coach that understands the abilities and ceilings of his players so that they’re tasked with playing within themselves.

I have no idea if Moyes would be a good long term coach, but he’s a guy that took a very pedestrian Everton and made them a respectable 7/8 club year in and year out when there were 5-6 clubs ahead of him with talent multiple factors better than his, so his teams were always finishing where they “should” based on the level of skill of the squad; they didn’t underperform and they weren’t in a position to beat the team outspending them. Again, this isn’t an endorsement for selecting Moyes, but rather using him as an example of what our manager needs to be able to assess and utilize.

I’d personally like to throw the bank at Schelotto. He’s played in MLS and understands the lack of talent, the travel/scheduling logistics, has experience coaching in a hyper competitive pressure (fan and media) league and continental cups, and has a firsthand familiarity with South American talent to know what is rightfully promising vs what could be a bust, and he has experience with both the star player before/after European stints and also the blue collar domestic player. To not make an all-in play for him will be nothing more than equivalent to NYCFC’s historical run of ineffective summer transfer windows. However, even after pissing away the second half of this season and very likely blowing up in the playoffs, I fully expect NYCFC is stick with Dome because it’s the CFG way

 

[dummyrun]

I'm not giving up on the team yet.

 

[Shwafta]

wait, he actually said that?

 

[dummyrun]

wait, he actually said that?

He did. And YouTube's closed caption AI understood him perfectly, which means all this worrying about next season is pointless because the machine uprising will already be complete.

 

[roxfontaine]

He’s a curator of tactics and ideas that only work with the top echelon of talent, and any derivation and drop from top level skilled players means that the tactics employed cannot uniformly be executed.

PREACH!

I want to like this manager and, of course, I want him to help us win but I don't think he can. I was a little suspicious when he was brought in and was completely blinded by the first 5 after his arrival. I don't care what our schedule is, who has turf, etc. This was a highly competitive club (by RESULTS) until he got here. Sure, we had plenty of issues before as well but none like this under Vieira. We are objectively bad right now and this is not the right direction of momentum heading into the playoffs.

We have a team that can and should compete with anyone in the league. I've always said that the instructions matter and this current set of instructions reads extremely poorly.

 

[Shwafta]

I'm still of the opinion that he came in half way through a season, saw a bunch of players performing very efficiently under Vieira and rated them too highly. That made him think he could make drastic switches which he couldn't afford. When the offseason comes and we get rid of tmac and wallace, hopefully he'll be able to do a reset and develop something better. I just think he over-estimated the players from the off, and now it's too late to correct it.

Seeing what he can do in this 3 week break will be extremely important, too.

 

[Christopher Jee]

If my opining is taken as I hope Dome is replaced now, then I’m either not relaying my thoughts properly, or I’m being misinterpreted. As much as I’d like him to go, I’m realistic he won’t be replaced immediately nor would we get a short term savior (although at this point I’d take Moyes on a caretaker role through the playoffs since I can’t handle our headless-chicken tactics), but I very much hope Dome is on the first plane back to Manchester the same night we get bounced from the playoffs.

I frankly don’t think Dome is up to being a coach in a league short on full-squad talent. He’s a curator of tactics and ideas that only work with the top echelon of talent, and any derivation and drop from top level skilled players means that the tactics employed cannot uniformly be executed. What our team needs is a coach that understands the abilities and ceilings of his players so that they’re tasked with playing within themselves.

I have no idea if Moyes would be a good long term coach, but he’s a guy that took a very pedestrian Everton and made them a respectable 7/8 club year in and year out when there were 5-6 clubs ahead of him with talent multiple factors better than his, so his teams were always finishing where they “should” based on the level of skill of the squad; they didn’t underperform and they weren’t in a position to beat the team outspending them. Again, this isn’t an endorsement for selecting Moyes, but rather using him as an example of what our manager needs to be able to assess and utilize.

I’d personally like to throw the bank at Schelotto. He’s played in MLS and understands the lack of talent, the travel/scheduling logistics, has experience coaching in a hyper competitive pressure (fan and media) league and continental cups, and has a firsthand familiarity with South American talent to know what is rightfully promising vs what could be a bust, and he has experience with both the star player before/after European stints and also the blue collar domestic player. To not make an all-in play for him will be nothing more than equivalent to NYCFC’s historical run of ineffective summer transfer windows. However, even after pissing away the second half of this season and very likely blowing up in the playoffs, I fully expect NYCFC is stick with Dome because it’s the CFG way

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were saying Dome should get bounced. Was just trying to illustrate why it would be futile for me to stay high level vs getting into the details

 

[canchon]

Speaking of Dome’s “curator of tactics and ideas”...at Man City Dome was responsible for the team’s organization on corners. The Man City documentary showed that he would run sessions with the team on corner kicks.

You know how many goals NYCFC has scored on corners since Dome arrived? ZERO. Last goal was Callens vs Atlanta in PV’s final game.

Set pieces matter. FYI - both of RBNJ’s goals today were a result of corners - the handball leading to the penalty and recirculation after ATL cleared the ball.

Tactical genius, huh.

 

[SoupInNYC]

If my opining is taken as I hope Dome is replaced now, then I’m either not relaying my thoughts properly, or I’m being misinterpreted. As much as I’d like him to go, I’m realistic he won’t be replaced immediately nor would we get a short term savior (although at this point I’d take Moyes on a caretaker role through the playoffs since I can’t handle our headless-chicken tactics), but I very much hope Dome is on the first plane back to Manchester the same night we get bounced from the playoffs.

I frankly don’t think Dome is up to being a coach in a league short on full-squad talent. He’s a curator of tactics and ideas that only work with the top echelon of talent, and any derivation and drop from top level skilled players means that the tactics employed cannot uniformly be executed. What our team needs is a coach that understands the abilities and ceilings of his players so that they’re tasked with playing within themselves.

I have no idea if Moyes would be a good long term coach, but he’s a guy that took a very pedestrian Everton and made them a respectable 7/8 club year in and year out when there were 5-6 clubs ahead of him with talent multiple factors better than his, so his teams were always finishing where they “should” based on the level of skill of the squad; they didn’t underperform and they weren’t in a position to beat the team outspending them. Again, this isn’t an endorsement for selecting Moyes, but rather using him as an example of what our manager needs to be able to assess and utilize.

I’d personally like to throw the bank at Schelotto. He’s played in MLS and understands the lack of talent, the travel/scheduling logistics, has experience coaching in a hyper competitive pressure (fan and media) league and continental cups, and has a firsthand familiarity with South American talent to know what is rightfully promising vs what could be a bust, and he has experience with both the star player before/after European stints and also the blue collar domestic player. To not make an all-in play for him will be nothing more than equivalent to NYCFC’s historical run of ineffective summer transfer windows. However, even after pissing away the second half of this season and very likely blowing up in the playoffs, I fully expect NYCFC is stick with Dome because it’s the CFG way

Based on what I know about Dome right now, I think he was a terrible coach to bring in midway through the season. He is not a guy that can come in and make the team successful (though I still do like our chances in the playoffs).

However, I am quite optimistic with a full offseason that he will be able to better figure this all out.

 

[twsj91]

However, I am quite optimistic with a full offseason that he will be able to better figure this all out.

I don’t understand the whole “after a full offseason he’ll put it together.” When a new manager comes in players usually get a month of preseason to put in their tactics. He’s had half a season. How has he and the players not figured it out yet?

I get it’s a new league. I get it’s a new country blah blah blah, but they’ve had plenty of time to click. Maybe I’m missing what everyone actually means, but it seems crazy to think more time will save the club. How much time does he need?

 

[dummyrun]

I don’t understand the whole “after a full offseason he’ll put it together.” When a new manager comes in players usually get a month of preseason to put in their tactics. He’s had half a season. How has he and the players not figured it out yet?

I get it’s a new league. I get it’s a new country blah blah blah, but they’ve had plenty of time to click. Maybe I’m missing what everyone actually means, but it seems crazy to think more time will save the club. How much time does he need?

Patrick Vieira got 18 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

Óscar Pareja got 18 points out of his first 15 games at FC Dallas.

Peter Vermes got 19 points out of his first 15 games at Kansas City.

Jesse Marsch got 20 points out of his first 15 games at RBNY.

Gregg Berhalter got 20 points out of his first 15 games at Columbus.

Tata Martino got 21 points out of his first 15 games at Atlanta United.

Dome Torrent got 22 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

The point here isn't that he's better than those coaches: different teams, different circumstances. The point is that the others went on to do better—a lot better—than their first 15 games.

 

[Ulrich]

Patrick Vieira got 18 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

Óscar Pareja got 18 points out of his first 15 games at FC Dallas.

Peter Vermes got 19 points out of his first 15 games at Kansas City.

Jesse Marsch got 20 points out of his first 15 games at RBNY.

Gregg Berhalter got 20 points out of his first 15 games at Columbus.

Tata Martino got 21 points out of his first 15 games at Atlanta United.

Dome Torrent got 23 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

The point here isn't that he's better than those coaches: different teams, different circumstances. The point is that the others went on to do better—a lot better—than their first 15 games.

All the coaches you listed as a comparison didn’t have teams with rosters essentially defined with continuity and familiarity with each other to the tune of being top 1/top 2 in the current season. They all rejiggered their rosters and had to start fresh.

Dome was handed a roster on a silver platter and after his initial run of wins, using the previous regime’s tactics, has gone on to nose dive from 30k feet with no signs of pulling up.

 

[NickA]

Maybe it's because European football is in full swing and the talent level is so much higher, but I'm finding it hard to watch this team right now. So sloppy, no direction, tactics are a mess, lack of skill, etc. If I watched this game two weeks ago, it may have pushed me towards not renewing since I was already on the fence. Between our play, that stadium, the field, Sweat...this is the worst the MLS has to offer. I'd be embarrassed to show anyone this game.

 

[mgarbowski]

Patrick Vieira got 18 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

Óscar Pareja got 18 points out of his first 15 games at FC Dallas.

Peter Vermes got 19 points out of his first 15 games at Kansas City.

Jesse Marsch got 20 points out of his first 15 games at RBNY.

Gregg Berhalter got 20 points out of his first 15 games at Columbus.

Tata Martino got 21 points out of his first 15 games at Atlanta United.

Dome Torrent got 23 points out of his first 15 games at NYCFC.

The point here isn't that he's better than those coaches: different teams, different circumstances. The point is that the others went on to do better—a lot better—than their first 15 games.

I'm more annoyed with the organization than with Torrent. All of those guys but one were hired during the offseason. The one who wasn't was Vermes who took over a team with a losing record through 18 games. All the guys who took over offseason also took over teams with a losing record, except one again. That was Marsch, and his team won Supporters Shield his first year. NYCFC is the only one to undergo a midseason coaching change for reasons completely non-beneficial to the team and show the effects of chaos.

Really, the obvious comparison you left out and which we all here pretty much never talk about is Chris Armas. Armas got 30 points in his first 15 games with RBNY.

Both Red Bulls and NYCFC lost coaches this midseason.
Both clubs are part of worldwide soccer organizations.
Both Red Bull GmbH and CFG have adopted a uniform playing style for all of their organizations and boast of plug'n'play interchangeability for coaches and players.
Jesse Marsch spent part of his 3+ years at RBNY training his replacement.
Patrick Vieira spent the last 3 months of his 2.5 years at NYCFC looking for another job and took his most trusted assistants with him.
Marsch left RBNY under terms set by Red Bull GmbH.
Vieira left against the wishes of CFG.
Red Bull GmbH has a plan for all of their clubs and personnel.
CFG hired Pep Guardiola for Man City and left Vieira twisting in the wind when he saw they were working on a Pep extension.
Red Bull GmbH brought Marsch in as an assistant to their flagship club after 3.5 years at RBNY and elevated his RBNY assistant who knew that team well.
CFG let Vieira walk after 2.5 years because they had no plan for him to move forward, then hired Pep's Man City assistant for NYCFC, who was unfamiliar with NYCFC, and publicly expressed confusion about MLS scheduling and other quirks. He then tinkered with a team that was 15-9-8 when he arrived to the point where they have managed less than a point per game over their last 11.
Armas just coached a game without his two most important players (not by his choice) against the best team in the league and won 2-0.
Torrent just coached a game without his 2 most important players (by his choice) against the 16th best team in the league and lost 2-1.
RBNY earned 32 points in 16 games under Marsch, 2.00 PPG.
RBNY earned 30 points in 15 games under Armas, 2.00 PPG.
NYCFC earned 28 points in 15 games under Vieira, 1.87 PPG.
NYCFC earned 25 points in 17 games under Torrent, 1.47 PPG.

RBNY and Red Bull GmbH had a plan for RBNY. CFG/NYCFC have a plan for Man City, and afterthoughts for NYCFC.
Sure, maybe Torrent and NYCFC turn it around for the playoffs. There's no sign of that but it could happen. Even if it does, though, the CFG claims of interoperability and synergy have been revealed as a joke, and as nothing more than vacuous corporate jibber jabber.







Also, left this to the end because it would distract from my main point, but it was 22 points for the first 15 games under Torrent, not 23.

 

[LionNYC]

I'm more annoyed with the organization than with Torrent. All of those guys but one were hired during the offseason. The one who wasn't was Vermes who took over a team with a losing record through 18 games. All the guys who took over offseason also took over teams with a losing record, except one again. That was Marsch, and his team won Supporters Shield his first year. NYCFC is the only one to undergo a midseason coaching change for reasons completely non-beneficial to the team and show the effects of chaos.

Really, the obvious comparison you left out and which we all here pretty much never talk about is Chris Armas. Armas got 30 points in his first 15 games with RBNY.

Both Red Bulls and NYCFC lost coaches this midseason.
Both clubs are part of worldwide soccer organizations.
Both Red Bull GmbH and CFG have adopted a uniform playing style for all of their organizations and boast of plug'n'play interchangeability for coaches and players.
Jesse Marsch spent part of his 3+ years at RBNY training his replacement.
Patrick Vieira spent the last 3 months of his 2.5 years at NYCFC looking for another job and took his most trusted assistants with him.
Marsch left RBNY under terms set by Red Bull GmbH.
Vieira left against the wishes of CFG.
Red Bull GmbH has a plan for all of their clubs and personnel.
CFG hired Pep Guardiola for Man City and left Vieira twisting in the wind when he saw they were working on a Pep extension.
Red Bull GmbH brought Marsch in as an assistant to their flagship club after 3.5 years at RBNY and elevated his RBNY assistant who knew that team well.
CFG let Vieira walk after 2.5 years because they had no plan for him to move forward, then hired Pep's Man City assistant for NYCFC, who was unfamiliar with NYCFC, and publicly expressed confusion about MLS scheduling and other quirks. He then tinkered with a team that was 15-9-8 when he arrived to the point where they have managed less than a point per game over their last 11.
Armas just coached a game without his two most important players (not by his choice) against the best team in the league and won 2-0.
Torrent just coached a game without his 2 most important players (by his choice) against the 16th best team in the league and lost 2-1.
RBNY earned 32 points in 16 games under Marsch, 2.00 PPG.
RBNY earned 30 points in 15 games under Armas, 2.00 PPG.
NYCFC earned 28 points in 15 games under Vieira, 1.87 PPG.
NYCFC earned 25 points in 17 games under Torrent, 1.47 PPG.

RBNY and Red Bull GmbH had a plan for RBNY. CFG/NYCFC have a plan for Man City, and afterthoughts for NYCFC.
Sure, maybe Torrent and NYCFC turn it around for the playoffs. There's no sign of that but it could happen. Even if it does, though, the CFG claims of interoperability and synergy have been revealed as a joke, and as nothing more than vacuous corporate jibber jabber.







Also, left this to the end because it would distract from my main point, but it was 22 points for the first 15 games under Torrent, not 23.

Just to emphasize how much an afterthought NYCFC is for CFG, just look at the club's description on the website. Many, many inaccuracies from the head coach to the academy.

https://www.cityfootballgroup.com/Our-Teams/New-York-City

 

[mgarbowski]

Just to emphasize how much an afterthought NYCFC is for CFG, just look at the club's description on the website. Many, many inaccuracies from the head coach to the academy.

https://www.cityfootballgroup.com/Our-Teams/New-York-City

I'm sure some intern will get right on top of updating that.

 

[canchon]

I'm sure some intern will get right on top of updating that.

Interns only update breaking news on the City website before it gets announced anywhere else

 

[SoupInNYC]

I don’t understand the whole “after a full offseason he’ll put it together.” When a new manager comes in players usually get a month of preseason to put in their tactics. He’s had half a season. How has he and the players not figured it out yet?

I get it’s a new league. I get it’s a new country blah blah blah, but they’ve had plenty of time to click. Maybe I’m missing what everyone actually means, but it seems crazy to think more time will save the club. How much time does he need?

All I meant by it, is he's clearly a coach who likes to do things his way. Basically, when he came in, he wanted to change things up. It's a lot more difficult to do that mid-season. He kept things somewhat similar at first and had some success and then changed things up and things have gone south. To argue that he should have continued to keep things similar is completely valid and I cannot argue against that.

What I am saying, is he appears to be a coach that needs time to instill what he wants and to build a vision with the team. I think that's far too difficult to do mid-season and I don't think firing him after this season would be the right approach until he is given that chance. It's possible that he flames out next year too, but I'm willing to at least give him 1/3 of next year before jumping to those conclusions. I will agree that it's not working out right now for him. And if we wanted him as a head coach, perhaps the best approach would have been to have an interim head coach and then bring him in afterwards. Though, I'm sure if we did that, we would be rioting right now as well.

I will admit, my optimism for the playoffs is probably more blind than anything, combined with my general optimistic approach to my sports teams. But in the playoffs, anything can happen. What's crazy is that we had 2.5 years of PV and he had an 0-5 record in knockout games (USOC and playoffs) while having great regular-season success and he was roasted for it (and I'm not saying his being roasted was unfair). Torrent is not having regular-season success, but what if he wins the first knockout game? I think it would be somewhat fair to discount it as it will be against a 5 or 6 seed. But then what if he wins the next and gets to the conf finals? Not saying it will happen, but does our criticism of him change?