2022 Roster Discussion

[SoupInNYC]

I can easily disprove half your points.

Please go ahead.

Show me where the Taty money was reinvested? It wasn’t.

I never said any Taty money was reinvested.

Your argument is either a) this club needs to sell to balance the books for the operating unit which is frankly horseshit considering energy prices or b) that it’s good the club didn’t sell Taty at a price that certain clubs offered because it would have messed up our recruitment strategy. Yet you’ve been unable to tell me what that strategy is except it’s for 2023.

I understand that our ultimate owners rely heavily on oil prices, but there has never been any relationship towards funding provided to this club and the price of oil. Additionally, until the club is operating in the black, we don't know how much money our ownership is willing to "lose" each year. Rich people hate losing money. I would love our ownership group to spend more money on the club and other items. But maybe they are already at the spending level they feel comfortable with? I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to think. A larger sale adds to that level, as well as may (I'm not saying it would result in), lead to more investment down the road.

I do think that it's good the club didn't sell Taty at a price that certain clubs offered. Because I think it would undermine NYCFC's future sales and their valuations. I never said anything about it messing up the club's recruitment strategy. I don't know what that is and won't pretend to. However, I will say, and did, that a sale at a higher amount can do nothing but help.

You didn't address a single thing I said and instead made up other points and straw man arguments on things I made no mention of.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Soup - how much GAM did we get for loaning Taty and how did we use it to improve our title hopes?

I don't know how much money the club got for loaning Taty. I do know that no money was used in the secondary window.

I think you already knew that second part, but since you're asking, I'm not sure.

 

[Kjbert]

1) If NYCFC were to sell a player well under the value they establish for them, it sets them up terribly in the future negotiation-wise for all future sales
NO IT DOESNT. DO YOU THINK FOREIGN LEAGUES DONT UNDERSTAND OUR SILLY CAP RULES?
2) I know you like to pretend any money above what can be used for GAM basically just vanishes, but it doesn't. That is money the club can invest in transfer fees for future DPs, into the academy, into fan relations, or into the local community
CERTAINLY. BUT THEN WHY IS THIS CLUB OPERATING THIS WAY? ARE WE PHILLY? THAT OPENS UP A WHOLE LINE OF QUESTIONING I DONT THINK YOU WANT TO DEFEND
3) The GAM money is currently capped at a certain amount and that amount increases each year. Additionally, the roster rules and salary cap have been becoming more and more flexible as time goes on. There's no reason to think the amount of money that can be invested back into the roster won't be more if a sale happens next year compared to this year
POSSIBLY. BUT HIS LOAN IS FOR TWELVE MONTHS. SO THAT MEANS WE CANT IMPROVE DURING OUR OFF-SEASON WINDOW. DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? SOUNDS LIKE YOU DIDNT.
4) Loaning a player out can result in GAM as well depending on what the team the player is being loaned to is paying for the loan. We don't know what that is in this case, but it is possible that NYCFC could basically double-dip in GAM on the loan, and then later on the sale.
YES. BUT YOU DONT KNOW IF WE RECEIVED GAM. AND WE CERTAINLY DIDNT USE IT TO IMPROVE OUR TEAM THIS SEASON.
5) Long term growth for the league. Sure, this could be a bit of a reach, but selling the top striker in the league for $15-20m as opposed to $8m helps build reputation for the league, increasing visibility from within the country and around the world, attracting talent to the league (as well as the club).
I GIVE ZERO SHITS ABOUT THE LEAGUE.

 

[SoupInNYC]

1) If NYCFC were to sell a player well under the value they establish for them, it sets them up terribly in the future negotiation-wise for all future sales
NO IT DOESNT. DO YOU THINK FOREIGN LEAGUES DONT UNDERSTAND OUR SILLY CAP RULES?
2) I know you like to pretend any money above what can be used for GAM basically just vanishes, but it doesn't. That is money the club can invest in transfer fees for future DPs, into the academy, into fan relations, or into the local community
CERTAINLY. BUT THEN WHY IS THIS CLUB OPERATING THIS WAY? ARE WE PHILLY? THAT OPENS UP A WHOLE LINE OF QUESTIONING I DONT THINK YOU WANT TO DEFEND
3) The GAM money is currently capped at a certain amount and that amount increases each year. Additionally, the roster rules and salary cap have been becoming more and more flexible as time goes on. There's no reason to think the amount of money that can be invested back into the roster won't be more if a sale happens next year compared to this year
POSSIBLY. BUT HIS LOAN IS FOR TWELVE MONTHS. SO THAT MEANS WE CANT IMPROVE DURING OUR OFF-SEASON WINDOW. DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? SOUNDS LIKE YOU DIDNT.
4) Loaning a player out can result in GAM as well depending on what the team the player is being loaned to is paying for the loan. We don't know what that is in this case, but it is possible that NYCFC could basically double-dip in GAM on the loan, and then later on the sale.
YES. BUT YOU DONT KNOW IF WE RECEIVED GAM. AND WE CERTAINLY DIDNT USE IT TO IMPROVE OUR TEAM THIS SEASON.
5) Long term growth for the league. Sure, this could be a bit of a reach, but selling the top striker in the league for $15-20m as opposed to $8m helps build reputation for the league, increasing visibility from within the country and around the world, attracting talent to the league (as well as the club).
I GIVE ZERO SHITS ABOUT THE LEAGUE.

1) If NYCFC were to sell a player well under the value they establish for them, it sets them up terribly in the future negotiation-wise for all future sales
NO IT DOESNT. DO YOU THINK FOREIGN LEAGUES DONT UNDERSTAND OUR SILLY CAP RULES?

I don't see what the cap has to do with anything. If other teams know that we cave into lower offers, guess what, we're going to get low offers for all of our players going forward. What team will be willing to meet our valuations (or close to them), if they know that we will just cave in?

2) I know you like to pretend any money above what can be used for GAM basically just vanishes, but it doesn't. That is money the club can invest in transfer fees for future DPs, into the academy, into fan relations, or into the local community
CERTAINLY. BUT THEN WHY IS THIS CLUB OPERATING THIS WAY? ARE WE PHILLY? THAT OPENS UP A WHOLE LINE OF QUESTIONING I DONT THINK YOU WANT TO DEFEND

Why are you now changing this to be about something else? I don't know why you are answering about me looking to defend something. I'm not looking to defend the club and have continued to agree with you that they didn't do enough this season and should have done more. Don't know what Philly has to do with it. The club can be operating better. The club has also never had a $10m+ transfer out in it's history, so perhaps we would see more spending in that regard. I'm just speculating this. I'm not saying the club will do this.

3) The GAM money is currently capped at a certain amount and that amount increases each year. Additionally, the roster rules and salary cap have been becoming more and more flexible as time goes on. There's no reason to think the amount of money that can be invested back into the roster won't be more if a sale happens next year compared to this year
POSSIBLY. BUT HIS LOAN IS FOR TWELVE MONTHS. SO THAT MEANS WE CANT IMPROVE DURING OUR OFF-SEASON WINDOW. DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? SOUNDS LIKE YOU DIDNT.

I did think about that. And I also thought about the secondary window that will also occur next year. The one that happens after the European leagues finish up. After Taty's loan expires. The window where European clubs spend the most money.

4) Loaning a player out can result in GAM as well depending on what the team the player is being loaned to is paying for the loan. We don't know what that is in this case, but it is possible that NYCFC could basically double-dip in GAM on the loan, and then later on the sale.
YES. BUT YOU DONT KNOW IF WE RECEIVED GAM. AND WE CERTAINLY DIDNT USE IT TO IMPROVE OUR TEAM THIS SEASON.

Correct. I don't know and no GAM was used in the secondary window this year. My post was about future years and I thought that aspect of it was pretty clear. Not sure why you are going back to bringing in this year. Again, the club has not done nearly enough this year. I agree with you on that.

5) Long term growth for the league. Sure, this could be a bit of a reach, but selling the top striker in the league for $15-20m as opposed to $8m helps build reputation for the league, increasing visibility from within the country and around the world, attracting talent to the league (as well as the club).
I GIVE ZERO SHITS ABOUT THE LEAGUE.

Ok.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

This thread has been interesting and a good read. I lean more to the SoupInNYC position, but K Kjbert makes some good points.

I do think that the injuries this year - Parks, Callens, Morales, Martins, Tinnerholm and the off and on Moralez age related knocks - will make it difficult for either side of the argument should the team not succeed in the playoffs. Those who thought the team should have done more will point to the lack of depth, but those that favor the patient approach will point to injuries as fluke occurences that could not be predicted.

Is there a measure anywhere regarding games lost to injury? Perhaps it is recency bias, but this year it seems more key players have been missing than any other season.

 

[JayH]

bump

 

[JCMore]

No offense to the kid, but when our offense needed the step up tonight, putting Jasson on just ain’t it.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

No offense to the kid, but when our offense needed the step up tonight, putting Jasson on just ain’t it.

I concur - but Jasson was substituted for defense, not offense. Cushing wanted the team to play for the draw.

If going into a shell for a draw is the goal, then Jasson is a better choice than Heber (or a brand new Pelligrini). However, whether the team should have abruptly changed gears and played for that draw is the question.

 

[Kjbert]

1) If NYCFC were to sell a player well under the value they establish for them, it sets them up terribly in the future negotiation-wise for all future sales
NO IT DOESNT. DO YOU THINK FOREIGN LEAGUES DONT UNDERSTAND OUR SILLY CAP RULES?

I don't see what the cap has to do with anything. If other teams know that we cave into lower offers, guess what, we're going to get low offers for all of our players going forward. What team will be willing to meet our valuations (or close to them), if they know that we will just cave in?

2) I know you like to pretend any money above what can be used for GAM basically just vanishes, but it doesn't. That is money the club can invest in transfer fees for future DPs, into the academy, into fan relations, or into the local community
CERTAINLY. BUT THEN WHY IS THIS CLUB OPERATING THIS WAY? ARE WE PHILLY? THAT OPENS UP A WHOLE LINE OF QUESTIONING I DONT THINK YOU WANT TO DEFEND

Why are you now changing this to be about something else? I don't know why you are answering about me looking to defend something. I'm not looking to defend the club and have continued to agree with you that they didn't do enough this season and should have done more. Don't know what Philly has to do with it. The club can be operating better. The club has also never had a $10m+ transfer out in it's history, so perhaps we would see more spending in that regard. I'm just speculating this. I'm not saying the club will do this.

3) The GAM money is currently capped at a certain amount and that amount increases each year. Additionally, the roster rules and salary cap have been becoming more and more flexible as time goes on. There's no reason to think the amount of money that can be invested back into the roster won't be more if a sale happens next year compared to this year
POSSIBLY. BUT HIS LOAN IS FOR TWELVE MONTHS. SO THAT MEANS WE CANT IMPROVE DURING OUR OFF-SEASON WINDOW. DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? SOUNDS LIKE YOU DIDNT.

I did think about that. And I also thought about the secondary window that will also occur next year. The one that happens after the European leagues finish up. After Taty's loan expires. The window where European clubs spend the most money.

4) Loaning a player out can result in GAM as well depending on what the team the player is being loaned to is paying for the loan. We don't know what that is in this case, but it is possible that NYCFC could basically double-dip in GAM on the loan, and then later on the sale.
YES. BUT YOU DONT KNOW IF WE RECEIVED GAM. AND WE CERTAINLY DIDNT USE IT TO IMPROVE OUR TEAM THIS SEASON.

Correct. I don't know and no GAM was used in the secondary window this year. My post was about future years and I thought that aspect of it was pretty clear. Not sure why you are going back to bringing in this year. Again, the club has not done nearly enough this year. I agree with you on that.

5) Long term growth for the league. Sure, this could be a bit of a reach, but selling the top striker in the league for $15-20m as opposed to $8m helps build reputation for the league, increasing visibility from within the country and around the world, attracting talent to the league (as well as the club).
I GIVE ZERO SHITS ABOUT THE LEAGUE.

Ok.

If we get $8 million or $15 million, you get the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. You conveniently seem to ignore this point.

You are now saying it’s ok for us to wait until NEXT SUMMER to monetize Taty for purposes of improving the team. So now we’re stuck until JULY OF 2023 before you think that it’s ok to improve our squad? So you’re throwing away 2022 and now 2023 as well.

LOTS AND LOTS of future year this, future year that.

Can someone tell us our goal scorer lost since Taty left?

 

[ZYanksRule]

If we get $8 million or $15 million, you get the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. You conveniently seem to ignore this point.

You are now saying it’s ok for us to wait until NEXT SUMMER to monetize Taty for purposes of improving the team. So now we’re stuck until JULY OF 2023 before you think that it’s ok to improve our squad? So you’re throwing away 2022 and now 2023 as well.

LOTS AND LOTS of future year this, future year that.

Can someone tell us our goal scorer lost since Taty left?

Gabi Pereira is the only player with more than one goal since Taty left. He has 2, five other players have one.

 

[SoupInNYC]

If we get $8 million or $15 million, you get the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. You conveniently seem to ignore this point.

You are now saying it’s ok for us to wait until NEXT SUMMER to monetize Taty for purposes of improving the team. So now we’re stuck until JULY OF 2023 before you think that it’s ok to improve our squad? So you’re throwing away 2022 and now 2023 as well.

LOTS AND LOTS of future year this, future year that.

Can someone tell us our goal scorer lost since Taty left?

Dude. You continue to ignore things I've said and then make up things from my posts.

If we get $8 million or $15 million, you get the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. You conveniently seem to ignore this point.

No, I am not ignoring this point. So to make it clear for you, I will explicitly say it here. If NYCFC gets $8m or $15m, they will get roughly the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. (I say roughly because the amount of flexibility went up by $50k from '21 to '22, so I would expect a similar bump. That is not much at all and isn't worth it on it's own to wait for a higher sale).

You are now saying it’s ok for us to wait until NEXT SUMMER to monetize Taty for purposes of improving the team. So now we’re stuck until JULY OF 2023 before you think that it’s ok to improve our squad? So you’re throwing away 2022 and now 2023 as well.

Ummmm, I think it was well known that Taty wouldn't be sold mid-way through his loan. The expectation would be summer. I also don't see why it would be throwing away 2023 just because it would be a summer transfer. That seems very short-sighted. The transfers-in during last summer is what propelled NYCFC to the Cup Final.

Can someone tell us our goal scorer lost since Taty left?

We have had several different goal scorers since Taty left. Maxi, Pereira, Thiago, Talles, Chanot, and Santi. GP is our leading scorer since Taty left.


I want to reiterate once again, that I agree with you on the team not doing nearly enough to bring guys in this year. ESPECIALLY, after Keaton went down. Something had to happen and it didn't and that's not acceptable.

 

[Shwafta]

If we get $8 million or $15 million, you get the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. You conveniently seem to ignore this point.

You are now saying it’s ok for us to wait until NEXT SUMMER to monetize Taty for purposes of improving the team. So now we’re stuck until JULY OF 2023 before you think that it’s ok to improve our squad? So you’re throwing away 2022 and now 2023 as well.

LOTS AND LOTS of future year this, future year that.

Can someone tell us our goal scorer lost since Taty left?

But the money you spend to GET a player is not the same as the money you spend on MLS roster salary... right?
I can pay 5m to a guy and give him 500,000 wages... I can also pay 10m to get a guy and give him 500,000 wages. Right? I believe that's how the system works, but maybe I'm misunderstanding?

 

[SoupInNYC]

But the money you spend to GET a player is not the same as the money you spend on MLS roster salary... right?
I can pay 5m to a guy and give him 500,000 wages... I can also pay 10m to get a guy and give him 500,000 wages. Right? I believe that's how the system works, but maybe I'm misunderstanding?

For a DP spot yes, the transfer fee amount (and salary) can be anything. So extra cash absolutely can help you bring in a more talented player.

For non-DP spots, the transfer fee does factor into the salary hit, so that is limited.

 

[Shwafta]

For a DP spot yes, the transfer fee amount (and salary) can be anything. So extra cash absolutely can help you bring in a more talented player.

For non-DP spots, the transfer fee does factor into the salary hit, so that is limited.

Oh, hmm. I wasn't aware of that, somehow. Oof.
However we WILL have multiple DP spots open next year right?

 

[SoupInNYC]

Oh, hmm. I wasn't aware of that, somehow. Oof.
However we WILL have multiple DP spots open next year right?

There should be at least one.

I haven't been following the contracts close enough to confidently say there should or shouldn't be multiple spots open.

 

[Kjbert]

Dude. You continue to ignore things I've said and then make up things from my posts.


No, I am not ignoring this point. So to make it clear for you, I will explicitly say it here. If NYCFC gets $8m or $15m, they will get roughly the same amount of MLS Cap roster flexibility. (I say roughly because the amount of flexibility went up by $50k from '21 to '22, so I would expect a similar bump. That is not much at all and isn't worth it on it's own to wait for a higher sale).


Ummmm, I think it was well known that Taty wouldn't be sold mid-way through his loan. The expectation would be summer. I also don't see why it would be throwing away 2023 just because it would be a summer transfer. That seems very short-sighted. The transfers-in during last summer is what propelled NYCFC to the Cup Final.


We have had several different goal scorers since Taty left. Maxi, Pereira, Thiago, Talles, Chanot, and Santi. GP is our leading scorer since Taty left.


I want to reiterate once again, that I agree with you on the team not doing nearly enough to bring guys in this year. ESPECIALLY, after Keaton went down. Something had to happen and it didn't and that's not acceptable.

Thank you for agreeing

 

[Shwafta]

NYCFC Sign Defender Stephen Turnbull to Short-Term Loan from NYCFC II | New York City FC

New York City Football Club today announced that the Club has signed Defender Stephen Turnbull to a Short-Term Contract, joining on loan from MLS NEXT Pro affiliate New York City Football Club II (NYCFC II). Per MLS rules, the Short-Term Contract allows clubs to sign players on loan from their

www.nycfc.com

 

[ZYanksRule]

NYCFC Sign Defender Stephen Turnbull to Short-Term Loan from NYCFC II | New York City FC

New York City Football Club today announced that the Club has signed Defender Stephen Turnbull to a Short-Term Contract, joining on loan from MLS NEXT Pro affiliate New York City Football Club II (NYCFC II). Per MLS rules, the Short-Term Contract allows clubs to sign players on loan from their

www.nycfc.com

Right-back. Wonder if this means Callens isn't ready, Gray is at CB, Tinnerholm out, so Acevedo RB and this guy on the bench just in case someone gets hurt.

 

[KevinJRogers]

Right-back. Wonder if this means Callens isn't ready, Gray is at CB, Tinnerholm out, so Acevedo RB and this guy on the bench just in case someone gets hurt.

He's been really solid at the Deuce, so I've been expecting this move. Such a brutal injury report.

 

[413Blue]

Interesting that he can only make two league appearances under this roster mechanism. Good thing we have the II team, better than an emergency signing from outside the organization.
Do the teams train together with any frequency?