Red Bulls - Postmatch

[JayH]

I am not going to give myself too much license to discuss this game, but just wanted to relay the thought that pops into my head almost every time Villa tries his flick-off or blind heel pass. I see Mark Messier, and his blind drop pass. It used to drive me nuts. I loved the guy, he was a god in my mind. But he would continually try this blind drop pass which sometimes was successful and resulted in a great play, but more often would end up as a gift and a breakaway going the other way. It felt dirty that it bothered me, because he was Mark Messier. I feel that same way about Villa and his flicks. It's cool when it works, but I see Mark Messier and I cringe when it doesn't.

 

[Kenny]

It seemed like the NJ guys were just physically bigger, and between that and their full speed high energy crashing around, they just intimidated and bullied our guys. We didn't have an appropriate tactical counter prepared, nor an in-game stylistic response by the players.

 

[mgarbowski]

What bigger games do we have outside of red bull, open cup and playoffs? What is our record in those games? And I've seen the CLB playoff return leg brought up as an example of us being up for it in a big game. Let's ignore the fact that we shit the bed so bad in the first leg all Columbus had to do was sit back. Let's ignore the fact that it still wasn't enough and that we were eliminated anyway. Anyone saying we're a big game team might as well tell me we played well yesterday.
As to my thoughts about yesterday, I've made them know in the chatbox and many of you guys had the same ones in here. Typically I wouldn't want that out in the public but I'm glad Ring called out Villa's goddamned flicks who work as often as we show up in big games.

The completely consistent Cup and playoff failures alone guarantees that this team has to be considered a big game failure to date. Even consistent success in the Derby would not be enough to counter that because (1) derby wins won't win a trophy without the Cup or playoff success, and (2) it could just be we had their number.
Also, going 2-0-1 in Derby MLS games last year did not even change the RB story for me. We lost to them in the Cup with a very desultory second half. Going 2-1-1 with the only loss also being the single elimination match is modestly OK at best.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

His low salary allows the team to spend more on other players (the ones that are supposed to be the difference makers). And he’s American. Go find another player that matches those traits, can play in a 4atb and a 3atb formation, and adds more assists than nearly any other outside back in the league. I’ll wait, and if you find one, let the FO know so they can sign him.

No dispute that Sweat has a place on the team, especially as an American at his salary. He can provide offense from wide positions in the right matches. That doesn't exclude the possibility that he played terribly yesterday, the worst among a collection of bad. He was primarily involved in the early deficit and the backbreaking third goal.

Sweat is a better, left side R.J. Allen. A defender that adds to the attack but has issues, well, defending. No one expects NYCFC to sign Marcelo, but it would be nice if - after four years - the team could add a defense first left back to balance the roster. Yesterday may have still been a loss, but a left back with a stronger defensive presence on the road against a high press team would have been a nice option.

 

[Nelson Jay]

NYC is not a big game team. I think I might know why. NYC is not fighting for self preservation.

IMO yesterday's loss isn't completely on Vieira but the players. They don't play for pride/for the badge. Why? because they are new players on the team. They weren't there for the 7-0. Only Villa.
This is a new team. Someone on twitter mentioned that this new team never had a fire to beat the red bulls. Hopefully, now they do.

Every time the red bulls play us, every fucking time, they play with the mentality of "If we don't mash NYC, then we will lose everything they worked for in the last 20 years."
I'm sure this is what the FO tells the players, the fans tell them and the players themselves. The moment NYC start winning cups/starts becoming a name in soccer. with our shiny new SSS in NYC. They will then be become second fiddle, which is disastrous for any organization. I dont not blame the rbs for acting like they do, they kinda have to act this way.

This is why Vieira doesnt want to hold himself accountable. Sure, Vieira got outcoached, but he was angry, he didn't see it or want to believe it. Which for a moment is understandable due to passion/anger/arrogance. I'm sure at a later date, he will say "i got outcoached."

I'm sure him and Villa told everyone this game is important. It was the new players who didnt have the fire.

As I said before, I wondering if the higher ups see this as well.

 

[roxfontaine]

NYC is not a big game team. I think I might know why. NYC is not fighting for self preservation.

Bingo.

 

[LionNYC]

On a side note, Sterling and another Man City Player were seen drinking a can of Red Bull in the tunnel before the trophy presentation.

Ugh. It’s only a domestic rivalry.

 

[NYCFC_JD]

So, unrelated to the game played on the field, but anyone want to discuss our fans throwing beer cans from the top stand and pelting people down below? I'm really not cool with that, at all. A family member was at the game, saying they saw little kids in pain and crying after getting hit with full/semi-full beer cans thrown from the top level, and that some families with kids in the vicinity were leaving because they didn't feel safe. I wasn't there, I didn't see it, but I trust my family member to be relaying the information accurately (and there's no reason they'd make it up). So, what gives?

I am upset about the loss on the field, but can accept it and move on with my day. I'm far more upset about the above situation. I will not be part of a club or fanbase that condones or allows that.

 

[Christopher Jee]

NYC is not a big game team. I think I might know why. NYC is not fighting for self preservation.

IMO yesterday's loss isn't completely on Vieira but the players. They don't play for pride/for the badge. Why? because they are new players on the team. They weren't there for the 7-0. Only Villa.
This is a new team. Someone on twitter mentioned that this new team never had a fire to beat the red bulls. Hopefully, now they do.

Every time the red bulls play us, every fucking time, they play with the mentality of "If we don't mash NYC, then we will lose everything they worked for in the last 20 years."
I'm sure this is what the FO tells the players, the fans tell them and the players themselves. The moment NYC start winning cups/starts becoming a name in soccer. with our shiny new SSS in NYC. They will then be become second fiddle, which is disastrous for any organization. I dont not blame the rbs for acting like they do, they kinda have to act this way.

This is why Vieira doesnt want to hold himself accountable. Sure, Vieira got outcoached, but he was angry, he didn't see it or want to believe it. Which for a moment is understandable due to passion/anger/arrogance. I'm sure at a later date, he will say "i got outcoached."

I'm sure him and Villa told everyone this game is important. It was the new players who didnt have the fire.

As I said before, I wondering if the higher ups see this as well.

I don't think this is entirely fair. Tell me Sweat doesn't know what it means after the way he celebrated his goal against them last season. Tell me Ring isn't pissed off. Ibeagha is brand new and looks totally dedicated to the cause. Villa was there for 7-0 and didn't stand up the way we needed him to, today. Vieira played right into a trap and didn't seem to have a plan B until half time.

I won't dispute that we lacked fight yesterday, but this old vs new thing isn't a factor to me.

To me (and others it seems), it's all about our philosophy of focusing on our gameplan, not psyching ourselves out or allowing emotion to get in the way of clarity. In some ways it makes sense - you want players rehearsing positive scenarios in their heads, not fretting about what could go wrong. But I'd rather see us adopting a mindset that uses the occasion and the opposition constructively, rather than trying and failing to pretend they don't exist, and flailing when reality isn't playing out as we've been conditioned to imagine it will.

There is something very defensive and fragile about trying not to be bothered by the intensity that the other team brings, rather than trying to hurt them with clinical passing, positioning and finishing. I know Pep teams are a tired comparison, but watch the way they toy with their opponents with the precision of their press, the tempo of their passing and their immaculate positioning. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to humiliate your opponent. As it stands however, other teams go out there trying to ruin our day. We go out there wanting to be left alone with our Lego. It's a mental set-up that seems doomed to failure.

I'm just going off of public statements, so there may well be a different message in the locker room that I'm not seeing and that renders this entire post redundant. But that's the vibe I'm picking up from this team and it comes off as complacent, self-indulgent and arrogant.

 

[Ulrich]

So, unrelated to the game played on the field, but anyone want to discuss our fans throwing beer cans from the top stand and pelting people down below? I'm really not cool with that, at all. A family member was at the game, saying they saw little kids in pain and crying after getting hit with full/semi-full beer cans thrown from the top level, and that some families with kids in the vicinity were leaving because they didn't feel safe. I wasn't there, I didn't see it, but I trust my family member to be relaying the information accurately (and there's no reason they'd make it up). So, what gives?

I am upset about the loss on the field, but can accept it and move on with my day. I'm far more upset about the above situation. I will not be part of a club or fanbase that condones or allows that.

I absolutely do not condone behavior like that, and those that partake in it should be banned for life. No exceptions.

However both the RB front office and NYCFC front office are 100% culpable for putting the opposing fans in the topmost seats that overlook other sections. When RB fans get placed in the third tier at YS, they have two tiers of NYCFC fans beneath them to toss beer and other projectiles. Likewise when our traveling fans get jammed in the upper section by the roof, there’s a good number of seats below them that are potential targets. For fans that are likely to cause trouble, that positioning is too opportunistic for their ethically bankrupt personalities to pass up. Teams should reserve a section of seats on the first level every match for visiting fans - those that the visiting club doesnt take can be put back up for game day sales with a buffer of seats between the top/back of the visiting fans and the front of the gameday sales. Seems to work well in England.

 

[dummyrun]

There is a developing argument, both here and on Twitter, between two narratives. The first is that our guys failed to match the focus and effort of the Red Bulls. The second is that Vieira failed tactically.

To me, it is obvious it’s a bit of both, but I think this was more about effort and focus. I didn’t see us getting to balls or closing down players or passing lanes at nearly the rate as our opponent.

On the other hand, I threw in the towel at halftime and didn’t see how the tactical adjustments affected things.

https://twitter.com/x/status/993148569640108032

 

[Christopher Jee]

https://twitter.com/x/status/993148569640108032

I find it hard to understand why we were willing to go over the top against Dallas but not against RB, which is why I suspect that this wasn't just about our wanting to play out of the back. I suspect that RB's pressing protocol was a little different, but would have to watch again, less inebriated.

 

[Nelson Jay]

I'm just going off of public statements, so there may well be a different message in the locker room that I'm not seeing and that renders this entire post redundant. But that's the vibe I'm picking up from this team and it comes off as complacent, self-indulgent and arrogant.

Fair enough, I agree.

I also agree that the team is arrogant and complacent.
Mindset is key.

 

[dummyrun]

I find it hard to understand why we were willing to go over the top against Dallas but not against RB, which is why I suspect that this wasn't just about our wanting to play out of the back. I suspect that RB's pressing protocol was a little different, but would have to watch again, less inebriated.

Sure, Dallas and RBNY press differently, and coaching isn't just binary instructions to build from the back or boot it long. But we know how to beat Marsch's press. We did it last year with worse players playing a simpler game. Yesterday Vieira overcrowded his backfield and tried to play through the press instead of over and around it, then publicly blamed the players when his gameplan didn't work.

 

[Kenny]

I absolutely do not condone behavior like that, and those that partake in it should be banned for life. No exceptions.

However both the RB front office and NYCFC front office are 100% culpable...

Yeah this is very upsetting. What can be done about this? It would be ideal to ban some of these fuckers, if they could be 100% identified. How could that be made to happen?

It is such a bad look. I don't know if I can continue to support a club that allows it. Seriously.

 

[SanBartG]

Yeah this is very upsetting. What can be done about this? It would be ideal to ban some of these fuckers, if they could be 100% identified. How could that be made to happen?

It is such a bad look. I don't know if I can continue to support a club that allows it. Seriously.

I was embarrassed. And I won’t sit in the supporters section again. I have no interest in that crap.

 

[mgarbowski]

To me (and others it seems), it's all about our philosophy of focusing on our gameplan, not psyching ourselves out or allowing emotion to get in the way of clarity. In some ways it makes sense - you want players rehearsing positive scenarios in their heads, not fretting about what could go wrong. But I'd rather see us adopting a mindset that uses the occasion and the opposition constructively, rather than trying and failing to pretend they don't exist, and flailing when reality isn't playing out as we've been conditioned to imagine it will.

There is something very defensive and fragile about trying not to be bothered by the intensity that the other team brings, rather than trying to hurt them with clinical passing, positioning and finishing. I know Pep teams are a tired comparison, but watch the way they toy with their opponents with the precision of their press, the tempo of their passing and their immaculate positioning. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to humiliate your opponent. As it stands however, other teams go out there trying to ruin our day. We go out there wanting to be left alone with our Lego. It's a mental set-up that seems doomed to failure.

I'm just going off of public statements, so there may well be a different message in the locker room that I'm not seeing and that renders this entire post redundant. But that's the vibe I'm picking up from this team and it comes off as complacent, self-indulgent and arrogant.

I've been trying to figure out how to say nearly the same thing, and reading this unlocked something in my head, which I think is complementary, not redundant.

A common criticism of both Vieira and Pep is they lack a consistent Plan B. I know hearing this frustrates Pep to no end because he knows he is constantly adjusting. He could not possibly succeed as he has being inflexible and failing to make adjustments. While PV is not at the same level, he adjusts things also more than I think people give credit.

Yet the criticism is not unfounded. The disconnect -- I think -- is the difference between strategy and tactics. Mini tutorial/reminder. Strategy is big picture, game plan, theory, concepts. Tactics are specific implementations. Strategy is "we will rely upon the element of surprise." Tactics are hiding in a big horse and killing the enemy in their sleep, or crossing a river on Christmas night (and killing the enemy in their sleep). Same strategy, different tactics.
Pep, PV, "the City way" consistently use the same strategy though tactics and formations change. And that strategy, though aggressive, is also somewhat languid and patient, and very compatible with a mindset that is great for long-season league soccer. I think it can be hard to switch from this approach and mindset to one more suited for playoff/tournament play. From statements last year (nothing I could find or cite now), I believe PV has learned this, though it hasn't paid off yet. But I think he remains reluctant to implement changes for a derby game.
Earl Weaver used to say that baseball ain't football, and you can't get too high or too down in a long season, and you don't change how you do things for one opponent because you just mess yourself up for a couple of weeks afterwards. I think he was completely right. His Oriole teams also tended to underperform in the post-season.

 

[NYCFC_JD]

Yeah this is very upsetting. What can be done about this? It would be ideal to ban some of these fuckers, if they could be 100% identified. How could that be made to happen?

It is such a bad look. I don't know if I can continue to support a club that allows it. Seriously.

Anyone in regular contact with the club able and willing to write a note ? Otherwise, I guess I'll just reach out to my ticket rep... though not sure where that'll go. I understand that the club doesn't want to anger any supporters or supporters groups, but if they don't stamp down on bad behavior like this, then they'll lose other fans anyway....

It's a difficult enough task to convince non-soccer people / non-MLS fans / casuals / family groups to come to games and support the sport... they see shit like this and will never give it another chance in their life.

 

[The Toe]

It's disappointing to see how much the fans put into these derby matches only to have the team show a fraction of the enthusiasm.

 

[Kenny]

I'm not a STH but I go to games when I can, and watch the rest on TV. I proudly display my swag at work and on the street. I am willing to help take action on this if there is something I can do. Maybe we can move this discussion to its own thread.