I know a lot of MLS fans don't like the "retirement league" rep and feel it holds the league back but given that we are a selling league and will likely stay that way for a while I wouldn't mind another wave of older big-name players entering the league. It's fun being able to see those guys play in person, they draw fans to games, help with recruiting talent and act as mentors for the younger players. I don't want to return to the days of using all 3 of our DP spots on older guys but I'd like to see them do more of a hybrid model of 1 promising prospect like Mango, 1 proven vet like Maxi when he arrived, and 1 big name like Villa/Lampard/Pirlo. Even if it means sometimes we end up getting lucky with a guy like Villa and sometimes we end up with a player that has a bit less left in the tank like Lampard or Pirlo.
2022 Roster Discussion
- Thread starter Fantazma
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There's distinctions to be made within the "retirement player" category. You can't lump Pirlo in with Henry and Villa, for example. More than happy to see us go after a 32-year-old who's actually motivated to win a trophy and is still near the top of their game. Throwing $5-10 million at someone just to make headlines would be silly.
I don't watch much soccer outside of MLS, but idk, like a Di Maria for 2-3 years would be cool?
I honestly think Pirlo and Villa had similar levels of potential impact at the time of signing. Villa was younger but Pirlo's game didn't rely on athleticism and seemed to be set up to age very well. Pirlo was coming off a strong season at Juve. For the first 1.5 years with Pirlo, it worked pretty well, even with the team not being set very well to maximize his skills. It's easy in retrospect to say I only want another Villa but signing older stars has just as much variable risk as signing young prospects. No one knows how these guys will age. Kaka, Zlatan, and Drogba all scored a ton of goals in the MLS in their late 30s. If you stop rolling the dice all together you will never get another Villa who by all accounts wildly exceeded even the most optimistic expectations.
Kaka scored just 24 goals in 3 years, and 8 of those were PKs.
Zlatan was an amazing goal machine who did almost nothing else to contribute. His work rate was horrific and the team suffered for it.
Drogba started just 27 games in 1.5 seasons, and his full season was half as productive as his initial half-season on a per-90 basis (he actually scored more goals in the half season).
Let's add --
Nani's midseason productivity drop is so predictable the NIST uses it to check their clocks and calendars.
Lampard contributed an amazingly productive part-season in 2016 that turned the team's fortunes around completely (with help from Jack), but only after arriving out of shape, getting hurt, and taking almost 12 months to recover.
I'm not saying it's impossible to win in MLS with a leading scorer who is 30+ years old, but here are the ~ages (I didn't account for month of birth) for the leading scorer on each year's Shield winner and MLS Cup winner, respectively since 2015.
2015 30, 24
2016 25, 22
2017 30, 30 (both Giovinco)
2018 33, 25
2019 30, 29
2020 26 & 27, 29
2021 25 TBD
FWIW, the 30+ shield winner in 2015 and 2018 was BWP, and Vela in 2019. The 29 year old Cup winners in 2018 and 2019 were Ruidiaz and Zardes.
In the playoffs, after a full season, old legs don't carry a team to MLS Cup.
I think we should focus on finding a true maxi replacement. Santi seemed like that kind of player at first, but the more I see him play, the more he doesn't seem like it. Perhaps it's because he's been playing on the wing instead of as a 10 and he's changing his play style a bit. Not sure. But even when he played as a 10 when maxi was unavailable, he seemed to have the same sort of quick, run and gun style. This probably has a lot to do with his age and lack of experience at the top level, but it is a big contrast to the kind of calming presence maxi can bring to the midfield and the attack.
maxi slows the game down when it needs it and pushes the counter when it's there. his ability to control the tempo of the game when he's on the ball often makes him one of the best 10s in this league. While a true 10 playmaker is going out of fashion in the top leagues in the world, it is still very important in MLS. In recent memory, the MLS cup champions have all had a solid #10 pulling the strings with an attack that finished the chances he created.
I don't mind if we look at Santi as a maxi replacement. Santi is here til end of 2022. If maxi signs another year, then we'll have the same situation as this year. We probably won't get to see santi as much at the #10.
The point I'm trying to make is I think if we are going to sign an experienced player from europe, I think it should be a #10 who has the same/similar attributes as maxi (and another 6-10 inches of height wouldn't hurt).
maxi slows the game down when it needs it and pushes the counter when it's there. his ability to control the tempo of the game when he's on the ball often makes him one of the best 10s in this league. While a true 10 playmaker is going out of fashion in the top leagues in the world, it is still very important in MLS. In recent memory, the MLS cup champions have all had a solid #10 pulling the strings with an attack that finished the chances he created.
I don't mind if we look at Santi as a maxi replacement. Santi is here til end of 2022. If maxi signs another year, then we'll have the same situation as this year. We probably won't get to see santi as much at the #10.
The point I'm trying to make is I think if we are going to sign an experienced player from europe, I think it should be a #10 who has the same/similar attributes as maxi (and another 6-10 inches of height wouldn't hurt).
I totally agree with Moogoo. If you watch both of them play, Maxi prioritizes ball security and tends to back away from opponents, looking for separation so that he can lift his head and pinpoint a deep pass. His dribbles tend to be just to shake off markers while retreating rather than to penetrate. Santi tends to run at opponents much more, with very underwhelming results IMHO. He combines well in tight spaces, but he's not a great dribbler, is physically weak and loses the ball quite a bit.
I think that if yesterday's game proved something it is that having great dribblers doesn't give you a lot if nobody in the team is able to pull the strings and the offense isn't in sync. Both Barco and Moreno were very involved and both completed a lot of dribbles in our half, but ATL didn't cause much danger. Meanwhile, we created a lot more danger with overlapping runs, runs in behind, and teamwork, without much dribbling. So yes, Maxi is absolutely key to the way we play and Santi doesn't look like a natural replacement. I would go further and say that Parks pushed up the field would look more like a replacement than Santi, but that wouldn't be ideal.
The biggest difference between those two guys (Santi and Maxi) is that Maxi is a veteran who brings all the savvy and awareness of an experienced player. He makes smart runs, he sets up well in between lines, times things perfectly and always knows where to play the ball.
Maxi ability to think two passes ahead or to fire a no look pass into open space is terrific. He keeps great track of who is where on the field. In contrast, think about the sequence in the first half last night when Santi was running free with the ball down the left wing. He had a defender ahead and Taty free over the middle running a few yards ahead of his defender. A well weighted cross from Santi puts Taty 1-1 with Guzan. Instead, Santi tried to dribble past his man to get 1-1 with Guzan, and his defender easily stripped the ball. Maxi makes that pass 10-10 times.
Santi has to get better at his decision making. Then again, he is 21 - 13 years younger than Maxi. I wonder if he really is the heir apparent or if we need someone with more seasoning.
Another thing about Maxi. As much as that dude gets fouled, and as small as he is, he must be pound-for-pound the toughest player in the league. He has a target on his back every game, and his style is to get the ball in traffic and move it forward - in other words, he doesn't avoid the scrum.
Maxi ability to think two passes ahead or to fire a no look pass into open space is terrific. He keeps great track of who is where on the field. In contrast, think about the sequence in the first half last night when Santi was running free with the ball down the left wing. He had a defender ahead and Taty free over the middle running a few yards ahead of his defender. A well weighted cross from Santi puts Taty 1-1 with Guzan. Instead, Santi tried to dribble past his man to get 1-1 with Guzan, and his defender easily stripped the ball. Maxi makes that pass 10-10 times.
Santi has to get better at his decision making. Then again, he is 21 - 13 years younger than Maxi. I wonder if he really is the heir apparent or if we need someone with more seasoning.
Another thing about Maxi. As much as that dude gets fouled, and as small as he is, he must be pound-for-pound the toughest player in the league. He has a target on his back every game, and his style is to get the ball in traffic and move it forward - in other words, he doesn't avoid the scrum.
I think Santi is a damn good player and will one day be a very solid No. 10, but he's probably better as a winger at this stage of his development. When Maxi leaves, my guess would be that we will need to bring in another seasoned No. 10. Santi probably isn't that guy right now -- that being said, I'm pretty excited to watch his development next year.
It's like Taty in year 1 vs year 3
I've been thinking more about the Maxi decision.
He was our best player on Sunday, and I'm not sure we win without him. There also isn't another player who is ready to step in and do his job.
That said, it does not appear that he can handle the workload of a full MLS season - even a longer one with less schedule congestion.
I would like to see him brought back on a TAM deal, maybe even a high TAM deal. The plan should be to manage his minutes carefully and plan to have him rotate out from time-to-time. That would give him the rest to be his best and allow someone like Santi to get more experience at the 10.
Maxi's salary this season was $2.5 million, with his "guaranteed compensation" being $3.685 million. That second figure likely includes amortization of a signing bonus. A TAM player in 2022 will earn between $0.612 million and $1.612 million. Whether he will accept a decrease into that range is an open question, but it's not unreasonable under the circumstances and probably more than he could get back home.
He was our best player on Sunday, and I'm not sure we win without him. There also isn't another player who is ready to step in and do his job.
That said, it does not appear that he can handle the workload of a full MLS season - even a longer one with less schedule congestion.
I would like to see him brought back on a TAM deal, maybe even a high TAM deal. The plan should be to manage his minutes carefully and plan to have him rotate out from time-to-time. That would give him the rest to be his best and allow someone like Santi to get more experience at the 10.
Maxi's salary this season was $2.5 million, with his "guaranteed compensation" being $3.685 million. That second figure likely includes amortization of a signing bonus. A TAM player in 2022 will earn between $0.612 million and $1.612 million. Whether he will accept a decrease into that range is an open question, but it's not unreasonable under the circumstances and probably more than he could get back home.
Good post. If I’ve followed our scheduling correctly, it is my understanding that we should see very few midweek games next season. That’s good for Maxi. If you can get 20 starts out of him, what’s that worth?
I think we've already seen what happens when a player stays one year too long. Pirlo was a shell of himself. Villa was good, but went from 30+ matches the first three seasons to 26. His goal scoring dropped as well. I know 7 goals in his final 17 matches would be something most people would take, but it was way off his normal goal scoring pace.
DP Maxi? No thanks.
TAM Maxi? Yes, please!
It also seems that Maxi is very much enjoying himself here and I wonder if his wife and kids want to stay too. Those are huge pieces to the equation that we all sometimes forgot to consider (myself included) that can result in taking a pay cut to stay here.
26 matches in a season is not a tiny amount. I think Villa that last year was well worth the DP spot.
Pirlo staying here (if you take away the DP spot consideration for a second) was not terrible because Vieira realized the best squad was with Pirlo on the bench and set his lineups accordingly. As long as the manager isn't going to cave into playing a guy because he's an older, legendary player then that's fine with me.
Now, the Pirlo situation is much different than that because he was using a DP spot and that is a complete waste and was not worth it. I think that same could apply here with Maxi. As long as he's not occupying a DP spot, then there's definitely room for him here. Especially if he's able to be spelled by Santi, who could also use the extra year with Maxi to develop and learn from him.
Totally on board with what you're saying. If you want to give me 26 matches of Maxi with a few matches coming off the bench on a TAM contract, that would be a huge deal.
Devils Advocate. We’ve had Medina on a DP contract. So who cares?
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Shouldn't we want more out of a DP spot than what we've gotten from Medina?
I think that's just because we happen to be pretty good at finding TAM level players.
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