2022 Roster Discussion

[SoupInNYC]

Answer the above question. If Taty goes for $30 million, do you think NYCFC brings in a $30 million player?

Right now? No. But pretending like (in this scenario you've laid out) that $27.5 million the club wouldn't see at all is just nonsensical.

The club will continue to spend more on it's roster, facilities, and community engagement the more and more that the club operates in the black. That includes transfer fees for incoming DPs. Especially as the roster rules continue to allow additional flexibility year over year.

That doesn't mean I think they are going to spend all $30m on a transfer in. But I'm also not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend they are only going to limit themselves to $2.5m for a transfer and then ship off $27.5 million to CFG to fuck around with.

 

[KevinJRogers]

Right now? No. But pretending like (in this scenario you've laid out) that $27.5 million the club wouldn't see at all is just nonsensical.

The club will continue to spend more on it's roster, facilities, and community engagement the more and more that the club operates in the black. That includes transfer fees for incoming DPs. Especially as the roster rules continue to allow additional flexibility year over year.

That doesn't mean I think they are going to spend all $30m on a transfer in. But I'm also not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend they are only going to limit themselves to $2.5m for a transfer and then ship off $27.5 million to CFG to fuck around with.

And we have to remember we have three key players going out of contract after this season. They have to be either re-signed or replaced.

 

[Shwafta]

Answer the above question. If Taty goes for $30 million, do you think NYCFC brings in a $30 million player?

There are a lot more operational costs at a club than just buying players. Sure, CFG provides some financing, but there's no way I believe that the club is being 100% financed by CFG.

 

[CCMore]

There are a lot more operational costs at a club than just buying players. Sure, CFG provides some financing, but there's no way I believe that the club is being 100% financed by CFG.

On the flip side I doubt we put very much money into the CFG scouting network as a singular club. That’s a really huge advantage for NYC that they don’t exactly pay for with money.

 

[Kjbert]

Right now? No. But pretending like (in this scenario you've laid out) that $27.5 million the club wouldn't see at all is just nonsensical.

The club will continue to spend more on it's roster, facilities, and community engagement the more and more that the club operates in the black. That includes transfer fees for incoming DPs. Especially as the roster rules continue to allow additional flexibility year over year.

That doesn't mean I think they are going to spend all $30m on a transfer in. But I'm also not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend they are only going to limit themselves to $2.5m for a transfer and then ship off $27.5 million to CFG to fuck around with.

I think you’re disagreeing with yourself.

Anywhere else when you sell a player for $30 million, it is reinvested. It will not be reinvested here - and that’s for multiple reasons.

But losing Taty is something we won’t come back from this year now. He was not replaced. The club was not improved. And it only helped CFG. That blows.

 

[Kjbert]

There are a lot more operational costs at a club than just buying players. Sure, CFG provides some financing, but there's no way I believe that the club is being 100% financed by CFG.

So we sell Taty to patch over losses?

City runs at a perpetual loss.

 

[Shwafta]

I think you’re disagreeing with yourself.

Anywhere else when you sell a player for $30 million, it is reinvested. It will not be reinvested here - and that’s for multiple reasons.

But losing Taty is something we won’t come back from this year now. He was not replaced. The club was not improved. And it only helped CFG. That blows.

How do you know if we are reinvesting it here or not? Are you involved in the club's finances? For all you know NYCFC has a deal with CFG to have its finances from sales independently spent/kept. I understand it also means the other way around which is that we also don't know if that's NOT the case.

However you're writing that as if it's a given that this is the case. Which it's not.

 

[SoupInNYC]

I think you’re disagreeing with yourself.

Anywhere else when you sell a player for $30 million, it is reinvested. It will not be reinvested here - and that’s for multiple reasons.

But losing Taty is something we won’t come back from this year now. He was not replaced. The club was not improved. And it only helped CFG. That blows.

How am I disagreeing with myself? All I am saying is that pretending only $2.5m of a $30m sale (which you are claiming) would be used to reinvest in NYCFC is ridiculous.

I am not saying that all $30m would be used to bring in a player.

 

[Kjbert]

How do you know if we are reinvesting it here or not? Are you involved in the club's finances? For all you know NYCFC has a deal with CFG to have its finances from sales independently spent/kept. I understand it also means the other way around which is that we also don't know if that's NOT the case.

However you're writing that as if it's a given that this is the case. Which it's not.

If Taty is eventually sold, you are telling me those funds will be reinvested in our squad?

The more he goes for, the more I can guarantee you that the club won’t reinvest those funds in the squad.

 

[Kjbert]

How am I disagreeing with myself? All I am saying is that pretending only $2.5m of a $30m sale (which you are claiming) would be used to reinvest in NYCFC is ridiculous.

I am not saying that all $30m would be used to bring in a player.

Great. We agree that CFG won’t reinvest all the Taty money in reinforcements. Which is what I’ve been saying.

You understand MLS roster rules. You should pretty clearly see things my way here.

 

[Kjbert]

Short of taking the Taty money and buying a new DP for whatever he is sold for, there is not a roster mechanism by which we can use his proceeds under current MLS roster rules.

So again, there is no difference in selling him for $10 million or $30 million. Both scenarios net you $1.25 Million in GAM.

Loaning him (and Sands) is the absolute worst outcome for this team.

 

[Brooklyn Blue]

Short of taking the Taty money and buying a new DP for whatever he is sold for, there is not a roster mechanism by which we can use his proceeds under current MLS roster rules.

So again, there is no difference in selling him for $10 million or $30 million. Both scenarios net you $1.25 Million in GAM.

Loaning him (and Sands) is the absolute worst outcome for this team.

You assume that the MLS cap rules will remain consistent next year. There has been more than enough chatter regarding a relaxation of the rules.

Also, in consideraton of the depressed transfer market during COVID, loans were the correct option for both players if the team a) wanted to keep its promises and become a destination for young players, and b) expects both players to thrive. If they play well, the team makes more money in the end (and possibly under new salary regulations that allow more use of that money).

I fully agree with you that the team is worse now than it was at the start of 2022 due to the loan departures, even with pre-season signings. Further, other teams have made moves, even if many are of the aging star model. Simply, it comes down to focus - this half-season (where two trophies are/were in reach) versus multiple seasons (establishing the team as a youth destination, believing sales value will increase for Sands/Taty, planning for relaxed MLS rules). I will never fault someone for emphasizing the now (see Oklahoma City Thunder circa 2012), but I prefer the wider view and trust the team that has the most points in MLS over the past five years.

 

[ZYanksRule]

If Taty is eventually sold, you are telling me those funds will be reinvested in our squad?

The more he goes for, the more I can guarantee you that the club won’t reinvest those funds in the squad.

Some will be reinvested into the squad, some will be invested into other areas of the club. Some will go to the academy, some will go improving other aspects of the organization. Obviously we can't use all of it on the squad, but we can still use it to improve different aspects of the club to make the players more successful once they're here, and maybe even to improve recruitment.

You are talking about a zero-sum situation, I think the rest of us are trying to see it as a big-picture ideal.

 

[Kjbert]

Some will be reinvested into the squad, some will be invested into other areas of the club. Some will go to the academy, some will go improving other aspects of the organization. Obviously we can't use all of it on the squad, but we can still use it to improve different aspects of the club to make the players more successful once they're here, and maybe even to improve recruitment.

You are talking about a zero-sum situation, I think the rest of us are trying to see it as a big-picture ideal.

The Club is pulling back from its Academy. I highly doubt the funds will go towards our Academy.

The big picture, to me, is where is the money? It's not on the field. And that's all we shoudl care about.

 

[ZYanksRule]

The Club is pulling back from its Academy. I highly doubt the funds will go towards our Academy.

The big picture, to me, is where is the money? It's not on the field. And that's all we shoudl care about.

The club is pulling back its Academy? This is going to sound ruder than I intend it so please don't take it that way, but what is the evidence of that? Their academy continues to produce talent, the 2nd team is near the top of the table in MLSNP ... since when are they pulling back on their academy?

I believe you are taking a too-micro look at this. If it's not on the field in the name of a high-priced DP, there are still many ways to invest that money to improve the squad. This isn't a zero-sum situation.

 

[Antidote P. Smiley]

You assume that the MLS cap rules will remain consistent next year. There has been more than enough chatter regarding a relaxation of the rules.

Also, in consideraton of the depressed transfer market during COVID, loans were the correct option for both players if the team a) wanted to keep its promises and become a destination for young players, and b) expects both players to thrive. If they play well, the team makes more money in the end (and possibly under new salary regulations that allow more use of that money).

I fully agree with you that the team is worse now than it was at the start of 2022 due to the loan departures, even with pre-season signings. Further, other teams have made moves, even if many are of the aging star model. Simply, it comes down to focus - this half-season (where two trophies are/were in reach) versus multiple seasons (establishing the team as a youth destination, believing sales value will increase for Sands/Taty, planning for relaxed MLS rules). I will never fault someone for emphasizing the now (see Oklahoma City Thunder circa 2012), but I prefer the wider view and trust the team that has the most points in MLS over the past five years.

As said before, I don’t believe NYCFC would have had to risk multiple seasons to do something to get better for a championship run this season. I’m not a professional Sporting Director/GM so my belief aint worth so much…
But Herc Gomez agrees with me! He was adamant last night that NYCFC absolutely should have made moves to bolster a run for back to back MLS cups. I’ve been putting my faith in Lee et. al. but today, I have to admit I am flummoxed thinking about what seems to be a laissez faire approach to the rest of 2022.
(Without really knowing what the OKC Thunder did in 2012, I don’t think that NYCFC would need to do that or even be able to do that in MLS)
2nd in the east with a game in hand. Every other team is making moves to get better, you send your best player away and stand pat…
Oh well, I’m gonna believe in magic. C’mon NYCFC!

 

[SoupInNYC]

Great. We agree that CFG won’t reinvest all the Taty money in reinforcements. Which is what I’ve been saying.

You understand MLS roster rules. You should pretty clearly see things my way here.

Lol, yes, that is kind of what I am saying, but now you're shifting your argument a bit.

What you were saying before, is that only the bare minimum would be reinvested in the club (in your scenario, $2.5m out of $30m).

What I am saying, is that likely not 100% of those funds would be used to reinvest in the club (at least not right away), BUT I am saying a lot more than the $2.5m you noted in your scenario would be used.

That receiving a higher transfer fee would be more beneficial, instead of you saying it won't matter at all.

 

[Shwafta]

If Taty is eventually sold, you are telling me those funds will be reinvested in our squad?

The more he goes for, the more I can guarantee you that the club won’t reinvest those funds in the squad.

Not our squad specifically, but there are also other operations around a club except for the 23 or so people who play the game of soccer.

 

[SoupInNYC]

Short of taking the Taty money and buying a new DP for whatever he is sold for, there is not a roster mechanism by which we can use his proceeds under current MLS roster rules.

So again, there is no difference in selling him for $10 million or $30 million. Both scenarios net you $1.25 Million in GAM.

Loaning him (and Sands) is the absolute worst outcome for this team.

Loaning Taty could potentially allow the club to double dip in GAM.

Why NYCFC sent MLS's best striker on loan to La Liga newcomers Girona FC

A loan to Girona may seem underwhelming considering Castellanos' quality, but NYCFC's potential return could be worth it

theathletic.com

"Lee declined to disclose the fee that NYCFC will receive for loaning Castellanos. Depending on that figure, the club might be able to convert some of it into general allocation money, which it could then use to increase its flexibility under the MLS salary budget."

If you want to completely ignore the long-term impacts of getting guys like Sands and Taty out to Europe when you promised them (both in those relationships as well as future transfers in), and want to also completely ignore the potential increase in allocation money for future sales for both of these players as roster rules continue to relax, and if you want to completely ignore that some funds above the available GAM would likely be used in the next two seasons to spend on a transfer fee for 1 or 2 new DPs, and you want to completely ignore, that other excess funds could be used to invest in the academy, stadium related items, invest in local communities, or provide better fan experiences, AND you only give a shit about this season and this season only, then I agree with you.

 

[Kjbert]

fed

Loaning Taty could potentially allow the club to double dip in GAM.

Why NYCFC sent MLS's best striker on loan to La Liga newcomers Girona FC

A loan to Girona may seem underwhelming considering Castellanos' quality, but NYCFC's potential return could be worth it

theathletic.com

"Lee declined to disclose the fee that NYCFC will receive for loaning Castellanos. Depending on that figure, the club might be able to convert some of it into general allocation money, which it could then use to increase its flexibility under the MLS salary budget."

If you want to completely ignore the long-term impacts of getting guys like Sands and Taty out to Europe when you promised them (both in those relationships as well as future transfers in), and want to also completely ignore the potential increase in allocation money for future sales for both of these players as roster rules continue to relax, and if you want to completely ignore that some funds above the available GAM would likely be used in the next two seasons to spend on a transfer fee for 1 or 2 new DPs, and you want to completely ignore, that other excess funds could be used to invest in the academy, stadium related items, invest in local communities, or provide better fan experiences, AND you only give a shit about this season and this season only, then I agree with you.

I’ll respond to this one first. The transfer window is closed. Now, we could still bring in a player on a free by September, but if they are getting GAM from the loan, it’s not helping us this season which was my original complaint.